Mark Wainwright: 0:19

Hello, and welcome to a another episode of Breaking Biz Dev. I'm Mark. He's John, and we are here today to talk a little bit about crafting an irresistible offer for lead generation. So it's gonna be a good one, John, How are you today?

John Tyreman: 0:36

Well, I, I think for folks who care to like go behind the scenes a little bit, the way that we record these episodes is we record two at a time usually.

Mark Wainwright: 0:47

Yeah,

John Tyreman: 0:48

And, uh, we just got off of a pretty meaty topic. And so I'm, I'm excited about this one. It's a little bit more up my alley in terms of like on the marketing side of things. So I'm ready to dig in.

Mark Wainwright: 1:00

Good, good. yeah. this is lead generation and for those of you, following along at home, right? Lead generation is owned by your marketing team, right? If your marketing team is not, you know killing it when it comes to lead gen in your firm, you don't even know what the heck any of that stuff means. Right? Marketing does lead gen. They create the maybes, and then when you are going through your selling motions, right, you are taking those maybes and turning them into contracts, right? That's how this wholesale and marketing thing works. But what we're gonna talk about today is focused on that top of the funnel lead gen stuff, and this has to do with offers

John Tyreman: 1:38

Mm-hmm.

Mark Wainwright: 1:40

and we want. Firm owners, principles, business developers, everybody else out there, marketers, you know, to understand how you can put together an offer, an offer strategy that helps you generate new business leads, right? And this is different from all of your, offers that you have for service delivery or expertise or whatever else. These are lead gen things and. we've got a spectrum or a pyramid that we're kind of looking at here, John, and the two things we're gonna kind of explore are, paid offers and free offers for lead generation.

John Tyreman: 2:21

Yeah, and in my opinion, the offer it could be a number of different things, and we're gonna get into some of the details and examples, but an offer is probably the single most important part of your lead generation strategy. And we're gonna separate out this conversation, the free offers from the paid offers, first, let's, define what an offer is. Does that sound good?

Mark Wainwright: 2:45

Go for it.

John Tyreman: 2:46

offer is a call to action and it is an opportunity for your audience, your, you know, someone who has been following you for a while, someone who knows you, someone who likes you, and they trust you enough to take an action. And that can be. Registering for a webinar, or it could be signing a contract for, you know, a very small entree engagement.

Mark Wainwright: 3:15

Yeah.

John Tyreman: 3:16

So those are the kind of the two extremes that we're gonna be talking about.

Mark Wainwright: 3:20

You've got this pyramid here and, and this, when I looked at it first I thought, well, it's not just a pyramid, it's a spectrum. But, uh, but yeah, I mean, we've got it here as a pyramid, and the top of the pyramid is a paid offer and it's at top of the pyramid because it's a higher dollar and a lower quantity. And then the big base, the big bottom of the pyramid is the low dollar or free in this, in for this conversation with a higher quantity, right? So we've got that all makes sense. And I think honestly, you can come up with offers that sit anywhere in that from the base all the way up to the very tippy top of the pyramid. So let's, let's walk through them.

John Tyreman: 4:03

You laid it out really well, mark, in that there are offers that can happen at any part of that pyramid. If you wanna think about it from a funnel perspective, they can, offers can happen at any part of your marketing funnel. There are offers littered throughout the client journey, so however you wanna visualize that. but I think we've organized this conversation around free versus paid offers, and I think that's a point of distinction that I wanted to kind of focus on because. I don't think that there are a lot of firms who understand the power of paid offers that those lower priced entree offers. So I think there, there's a lot of marketers out there who understand the concept of a free offer and the focus on harvesting email addresses, nurture campaigns to try to generate leads. but that'll be kind of the point of contrast for these paid offers.

Mark Wainwright: 4:56

Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good.

John Tyreman: 4:58

So let's dig into it. So free offers. These are really great for building brand awareness for top of funnel lead generation for adding new contacts to your CRM. So that's kind of like the point of free offers Now, paid offers, on the other hand, they're really best for qualifying. potential clients. it demonstrates your expertise. It positions you as an expert because this is an entree engagement. They're paying for it. That's not a free consultation, and it builds stronger client relationships. So if you're able to start off a relationship on the right foot with a valuable paid engagement, that tees you up for expanding that account.

Mark Wainwright: 5:42

Free offers and from, we're talking about a funnel, top of funnel, and then those paid offers are,, are happening somewhere. Further down in the funnel. So yeah, there we go. All right.

John Tyreman: 5:53

I, I guess like the, the common theme here is, there are free offers that can happen at the bottom of the funnel. And I think this is where a lot of marketers make mistakes where it's like, Hey, contact us for a free consultation. And it's really a sales conversation in disguise

Mark Wainwright: 6:08

And it probably should be a paid offer.

John Tyreman: 6:09

and it probably should be a paid offer because they're dumping a lot of resources in it. Or it shouldn't be as bait and switchy. it should be a product that you're offering. So I, I think that's where a lot of marketers get tripped up. and I'm not advocating that you take out all of your free offers in your marketing. Like you, you know, you shouldn't stop doing webinars. You shouldn't stop trying to get people to subscribe to your email list. I'm just simply saying that, you know, think of that first paid engagement with a client in a small way and have them take a lick of the lollipop before they, buy the whole, the whole thing.

Mark Wainwright: 6:43

Right. Right. So, that's the pros on this whole thing. So the pros, the big benefits of the free offers are,

John Tyreman: 6:51

Free offers give you a higher volume of

Mark Wainwright: 6:53

Yeah. Yeah.

John Tyreman: 6:54

Free offers are easier to distribute, and what I mean by that is they're easier to try to get people to take action on those offers at scale.

Mark Wainwright: 7:05

Yeah. Yeah. Lower barriers to entry.

John Tyreman: 7:07

Yeah. Lower barriers to entry. You can automate a lot of it. Free entry, free offers generate that initial level of interest, so it could be a signal of demand

Mark Wainwright: 7:17

Yeah.

John Tyreman: 7:18

depending on what that offer is. Now, paid offers, on the other hand, the pros for paid offers is it helps you qualify, leads it weeds out the looky-loo. The word free has a lot of connotation to it. So people who are attracted to the word free may not be the kind of clients that you want to work with. paid offerings establish a value upfront, and when you work with folks during, or work with clients in a paid engagement, you learn more about them and so you're able to set up future contracts in a better way.

Mark Wainwright: 7:51

Yeah, yeah. Good, there's downsides to both, or at least things to be aware of, right? So what are the things to be aware of with free offers?

John Tyreman: 7:59

Yeah. So kind of like to that point about the word free. Free offers can attract many unqualified leads,

Mark Wainwright: 8:07

Yep.

John Tyreman: 8:08

and if you're offering free consultations, it waters down the value of your perceived expertise.

Mark Wainwright: 8:14

Yeah, you gotta be careful.

John Tyreman: 8:16

And then we talked about scaling. If you're offering a free consultation and you're looping in an expert and that's part of your sales process, you know, that can be really, really costly. It can increase the cost of sale.

Mark Wainwright: 8:29

Yep. Good. So the downsides of a paid offer.

John Tyreman: 8:34

Yeah. The downsides of a paid offer our kind of lower total lead volume, however you define leads. If you were to. Start to offer more of these paid engagements at the onset. You might see a little bit of a dip in your leads depending on how you

Mark Wainwright: 8:47

Yeah.

John Tyreman: 8:48

define them. it does require a little bit more upfront effort to create. So it's easy to say free consultation. It's harder to say, we're gonna do a road mapping exercise that's going to set you down one of three different paths.

Mark Wainwright: 9:02

Right, I mean, it sounds to me like one of the downsides is, like you said, the cost of sale increases, so it starts to pull in some selling motions, some selling activities which are more intensive than your marketing motions. Absolutely.

John Tyreman: 9:14

And it's a potential barrier to entry for some clients. You know, maybe there's some folks that you could work with that, maybe they're not ready for that paid engagement right now. so those are some downsides.

Mark Wainwright: 9:27

Yeah, this is, this is a complex thing, I guess the big reason we're bringing this up, right, is that it is, there's a lot, there's a lot of nuance, there's a lot of, confusion with this. I think with both of these, I think free offers can be done well and done poorly. I. Paid offers can be done, well done poorly. There's a lot of pitfalls, there's a lot of benefits, all that other stuff. We're trying to tease all that apart here, so, you mentioned a few examples kind of here and there anecdotally, but what are some specific examples of free offers that you can think of? John?

John Tyreman: 9:53

Yeah. webinars is a great, a great example. proprietary research reports or PDF guides, you know.

Mark Wainwright: 9:59

You know.

John Tyreman: 9:59

Submit your email address and get this PDF, comment a keyword and I'll send you a resource. That's another motion, another tactic that I've seen out there, on social media and so forth. But those are all examples of free offerings. Obviously the free consultation disguised as a sales call is probably not a good practice, but that is another example of a free offer.

Mark Wainwright: 10:21

Yeah. Yeah. and I would agree. So, yeah, examples of paid offers, and again, folks we're talking about paid offers connected with lead generation. We're not talking about paid offers that are part of your service delivery entree, right? This is stuff that's gonna tee something up or, you know, just a taste, you know, try before you buy sort of a thing. So what are some examples of paid offers?

John Tyreman: 10:41

you buy. could think about this as offsetting your cost of sale. Two, so some examples of these paid offers that lead to, potential clients are, I mentioned earlier, road mapping exercises, or maybe it's an in-depth audit. you go really in depth into some analytics and you're doing some pretty intense digging into the numbers. Collaborative workshops could be another example of a paid offering where you're rolling up your sleeves with your client, you're going, you're digging down with them, and you're spending a little bit more time understanding their situation so that you can provide some high level recommendations, possibly some different courses of action for them to consider.

Mark Wainwright: 11:23

Yeah. Good, good. and all of these things are just these little tiny. First steps, they're these little nibbles. and I've got some real life examples on this whole thing that kind of come to mind to me is that I have seen some, organizations, folks that I know, have taken, service delivery, paid, offerings, you know what they do for their work, and they take that, it's very similar. Offering and they radically reduce the price of it to make it a lead gen tool. So it ends up undercutting their paid service delivery work. So they're kind of, cutting off their nose despite their face sort of a thing. So you can do this wrong, folks. You can absolutely do a paid offer that you shoot yourself in the foot.

John Tyreman: 12:08

in that example. Discounting your regular, your service offering is only going to set you up for having to have a hard conversation with a client down the road, or it's gonna set you up for having a client that's not contributing good revenue to your organization.

Mark Wainwright: 12:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very good. The last thing you kind of have here is what are you measuring? What are the numbers? I know you're the data guy, research guy. So what are you measuring with free offers? What are the important numbers?

John Tyreman: 12:37

I have two that I look at. the top of the funnel metric is for professional services firms and it's some variation of this is net new emails generated, whether that's a newsletter, a CRM, that's one quantifiable metric that you can point to to say these free offers are working. The other that I point to on free offers is the number of conversations with ICP or ideal client profile aligned prospects. You know, conversations can happen on a Zoom call. They can happen at a conference, they can happen on social media, but are those conversations happening and are they happening with the right people? And so that would be the other. Indicator of performance that I would look at from a lead generation perspective.

Mark Wainwright: 13:29

Good. Simple, straightforward. and what about paid offers? What numbers are important? Probably not radically different, but they're, there are other numbers.

John Tyreman: 13:36

Yeah. Yeah. they're definitely, different, the number of inquiries for the paid offer. Right? So the number of people who express an interest knowing that this is a paid offering. They wanna learn more about it. What goes into that road mapping exercise? What goes into that audit? What are you gonna look at? the win rate of those entree offers. So how many people inquire, and how many people win? How many people win over? How many people inquire that? That's the conversion rate? Yeah, exactly. And what that tells you is how appealing is the offer? Do you need to make it more valuable? Do you need to adjust the price at all? Those are the levers that you have for. For that, but that's what I would look at for that specifically because of its goal of generating leads.

Mark Wainwright: 14:19

Yeah. And you mentioned this, before, John, and there's a, a note here that underscores all of this, right? Is that we listed the pros and cons and the, things you measure and the, use cases and the examples of all of these things. So there's a place. I think in all your organizations out there, there's a place for a free offer. There's a place for a paid offer. There ain't no place for discounts. It's not what we're talking here,

John Tyreman: 14:46

that's a.

Mark Wainwright: 14:46

not, That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about these two different things, both done from a lead generation standpoint, both yielding different results, measuring different things, clients getting different things out of it. You know, so they are, they are different beasts, but we are not talking about, you know, discounts and, you know, we never talk about discounts every time one of my clients says, oh yeah, yeah, we discount all the time. It's just, ugh.

John Tyreman: 15:09

You know, I think, um, a good way to think about this is I interviewed David C. Baker like five years ago on the Visible Expert Podcast, and he said something that really stood out to me back then, and it was there are two flavors of expertise. There's generalized expertise, which you should give away for free, and then there's applied expertise, which your clients should pay for. I think that's kind of like the, the big, I can't believe it took me this long to put the two and two together, but I think that's really what we're talking about here with the free offers. That's, you're giving your generalized expertise away for free. And then with these paid, lead gen offers, you're applying your expertise in a limited way.

Mark Wainwright: 15:50

Yeah. Yeah. And, that pyramid just came rushing back into my head that the generalized expertise sits at the base of the pyramid with the free high quantity, offers. And then as you ascend the pyramid of expertise towards the peak, you are bringing in your focused expertise. There it is. Love the model.

John Tyreman: 16:10

We, we had an aha moment

Mark Wainwright: 16:11

We took the funnel, we took the pyramid, we flipped it over to the funnel, and now we're back to the pyramid again. So we're just flipping it. We're just, we're all over the place. Maybe it's a diamond at this point. I don't know.

John Tyreman: 16:21

I don't know, maybe it is flip the

Mark Wainwright: 16:23

Yeah.

John Tyreman: 16:24

or, or an hourglass.

Mark Wainwright: 16:26

So you, you had this, this extra bit here that was kind of unexpected to me, but I think it's kind of fun. We've talked about cognitive bias in the past, and you have listed here, a number of cognitive biases that get kind of wrapped into this whole sort of free or even paid sort of offer thing. And yeah, let's work through that. You're listening to breaking biz dev

John Tyreman: 16:50

the podcast that beats up, breaks down, and redefines business development for the professional services firms of tomorrow. Your hosts are John Tyerman, founder of Red Cedar Marketing, the podcast marketing company for experts and professional services firms,

Mark Wainwright: 17:05

And Mark Wainwright, principal consultant and founder of Wainwright Insight, the fractional sales manager and sales consultant to professional services firms.

John Tyreman: 17:15

If you find this podcast helpful, please help us by following the show and leaving a review on Apple podcasts

Mark Wainwright: 17:20

and now back to the show.

John Tyreman: 17:24

Thinking of it through the lens of offering your generalized expertise. just saying what you were offering isn't enough. there are these human tendencies that we have, that are tools at your disposal to maybe make it a little bit more vivid in your prospect's mind when they're encountered with your call to action, when they come into contact with your offer.

Mark Wainwright: 17:48

Yeah.

John Tyreman: 17:49

So this first one that we have here is the fomo, right? Fear of missing out, loss aversion. So what's the opportunity cost of inaction. So if you don't take me up on this offer, what's going to happen? You know, if you don't do this road mapping exercise with me, you could stay lost in the fog for another three

Mark Wainwright: 18:10

Yeah. Good, good. Love that. I love loss aversion. Oh,

John Tyreman: 18:15

Yeah, you're a big loss

Mark Wainwright: 18:16

It's so powerful. I.

John Tyreman: 18:17

Social proof is another cognitive bias. I mean, this is a pretty easy one, but it's like, okay, check out all these reviews from people just like you who went through this roadmapping exercise. I keep using that as an example. I should probably use others,

Mark Wainwright: 18:28

No, it's good. Social proof is good. You know, social proof immediately ties to loss aversion. It's like, well, if everybody's doing it, I need to as well. And look at the great things they have to say. So yeah, all these are good. All right.

John Tyreman: 18:39

This next one, the pain of paying. We've talked about this a little bit in the past, but with a paid engagement as part of your offer strategy, that small entree engagement, when the client pays that it's a low dollar, low risk, but they go through that process of paying you and then after they pay you once doing it again isn't so painful.

Mark Wainwright: 19:00

creating a super low hurdle for them to jump over and then creating that financial relationship, and then it just expands from there, hopefully, so. Great. Love that one.

John Tyreman: 19:11

Yeah. The next cognitive bias that you can leverage in your offer strategy is scarcity. So we've only got three spots left, or we've got a six month waiting list for new clients. I. So these are all ways that you can introduce scarcity. Now you gotta be careful with this because you don't wanna manufacture scarcity. There's gotta be some element of truth there,

Mark Wainwright: 19:34

Yeah. and the truth for me is just like, look, it's just, it's limited, right? there's just a limit to, how often we offer this, how many people can be involved, you know, all that kind of stuff. Sure. There's just, there's just limits and that. Every single time invokes that scarcity thing.

John Tyreman: 19:49

Another cognitive bias that you can use is reciprocity, and so this is where you're depositing tangible value to a prospect before you present your offer.

Mark Wainwright: 20:00

Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Ooh, that was really generous. Very free or low cost offering high value. We really appreciated it. Yeah,

John Tyreman: 20:08

It could be as simple as like making connections or like making a referral.

Mark Wainwright: 20:12

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it was so nice of John to do that for us. It would be easy for us to introduce him to others that could enjoy it the same way we enjoyed it, so, boy, that's great. So yeah. Reciprocity. That's a good one.

John Tyreman: 20:25

And then this is one of your favorites too, the decoy effect.

Mark Wainwright: 20:27

yeah. Oh

John Tyreman: 20:28

So maybe you've got a paid engagement or a paid offer that's sitting right next to a big shiny offer that your full engagement perhaps, and this small entree offer starts to look really, really appealing.

Mark Wainwright: 20:43

Yeah. And there are different, right? There are different offers. they produce different results. One trap that people fall into often is that, oh, we're gonna just put these two things next to each other. One's gonna be half the price, but they're both gonna achieve the same results. No, that is not how it works, folks. This is not what we're talking about here, but yeah, the decoy effect is. Super powerful, having them compare, a lower no cost offering, to something much bigger. Clearly, outcomes, results are different, but it's like, wow, we can get started with just this little thing. Nice. Yeah. Good?

John Tyreman: 21:16

That's a good point. the paid offering could be compared to a free offer that's very, very limited and Yeah, that's a good point. I got some examples and these examples kind of incorporate those cognitive biases.

Mark Wainwright: 21:28

Yeah.

John Tyreman: 21:29

and so these are examples of how you can, like, how you can take that, so on the free side. See how you stack up against your peers. Take our benchmarking assessment,

Mark Wainwright: 21:41

Yeah. that one's tempting.

John Tyreman: 21:43

so you've got social proof, right? See how you stack up against your peers, and then you've got your offer. All right? Ask experts your most pressing questions. Join our private webinar and q and a.

Mark Wainwright: 21:58

that one's a little bit higher effort.'cause it's probably synchronous, right. So yeah.. But hopefully that would produce some good results.

John Tyreman: 22:07

Private webinar. So there's, scarcity

Mark Wainwright: 22:10

Yep.

John Tyreman: 22:11

and there's experts. You can ask them questions. So there's fear of missing out. It's a single event.

Mark Wainwright: 22:18

yeah. Right?

John Tyreman: 22:19

So there's, there's a couple of different cognitive biases at play there.

Mark Wainwright: 22:23

Mm-hmm.

John Tyreman: 22:23

All right. Don't fall behind on industry news. Subscribe to our email newsletter

Mark Wainwright: 22:28

Here you go. Loss aversion. Yeah. Yeah.

John Tyreman: 22:31

All right. Understand the market better. Download our research report.

Mark Wainwright: 22:37

Yeah. Easy, easy one to, I'd swap my email address for that any day.

John Tyreman: 22:40

Hear from real world experts and practitioners. Subscribe to our podcast.

Mark Wainwright: 22:45

Sold. Yeah. Yeah. Easy, right? Yeah. And we're, we're not guys, we're not making this up, right. This is, these are easy moves that any and all professional services firm can make. Just to increase. This is gonna make some radical shift in your, your lead flow. But you know, this is gonna increase, right? We, we need, everybody needs leads, everybody needs maybes. Walking in through everybody needs, you know, emails, people knocking on the door, whatever else. And these are really simple moves that most people aren't taking advantage of. So these are good examples. Alright, so you had some paid examples here as well, John.

John Tyreman: 23:20

Yeah, some paid examples, and this is actually one that I offer to my clients is, a podcast can be a long-term commitment. See if it's right for you. First with a pilot episode, a.

Mark Wainwright: 23:31

Yeah.

John Tyreman: 23:33

That's, an offer for, you know, this is a paid engagement. Let's produce a pilot episode. Go through that. And what it does is it brings the product to life for people who are like, on the fence maybe of starting a podcast and it, and then it like, makes it real for them. So I've seen that kind of like light bulb moment go off with that pilot episode. And then it's also a tool for me to say like. is this gonna be a good client to work with?

Mark Wainwright: 24:00

Good. I love it. So it's still right. we're not calling these folks, customers quite yet. This is still lead gen. We're still gonna do this thing. It's gonna be paid, but we're still sussing each other out. Yeah. Good.

John Tyreman: 24:12

So that's a, an example of a paid offer. We talked about the, you know, road mapping exercise. Mark, I'm curious, would, would you consider your 90 day money back guarantee a paid offer?

Mark Wainwright: 24:24

Well, that's interesting. I often will wrap that into my,, sales activities. That's usually part of my, agreement. That is something that I don't always, it's not always there, but I will layer that in. a 90 day money back guarantee is possible for any professional services firm out there. And some people are saying, what is it, do you mean talking about, how does that even work? I mean, you know, I work with firms who, do big project. Based work and how are we gonna give money back? well, you know, I layer that in because it reduces the perceived risk from the client. It's definitely has that sort of try before you buy, sort of flavor to it. I don't explicitly use it kind of in a. Lead gen motion. It's definitely involved in my whole sales process, but it is a valid, it is a valid tool that you can use associated with a paid offer with the goal of generating, high quality leads is to say that, okay, we've, you know, we will do this thing if it doesn't produce the results you want it to produce, I'll send your money back, whatever. Like that kind of a thing. you know, so few people will actually take you up on that. I mean, that's the thing is that you offer money back guarantees is that, 1%, everybody you offered to will take you up on it and so, it's well worth it.

John Tyreman: 25:44

Yeah. And so I think, mark, you had a, an example of a current client who is experimenting with some paid offers.

Mark Wainwright: 25:51

I kind of referenced it a little bit earlier on and I do have some clients that kind of mess around with this and, you know, awkwardly wander this line between sort of a free offering and a paid offering for lead generation purposes. it's not planned out well. You know, like I said earlier, a lot of times maybe the paid offer just ends up. undercutting their regular service, delivery offerings, it's messy. they keep throwing darts at dartboards, and this can apply to any organization. I do have some, personal perspective, with that. But anybody can start doing this if, you find yourself in this sort of like Desperation mode almost, where you start throwing everything to see what sticks. those, paid offer after paid offer can eat you alive. You know, it's just these little things that you're turning yourself inside out to deliver on these, you know, paid lead gen activities and you're not making a dime on any of it. So, yeah, it's, it's tough. It's a tricky place to be.

John Tyreman: 26:51

Well, and that's, that's where I think it, it makes sense to, in my opinion, I think all firms should have some form of a free offer. As part of their lead generation strategy. And can be just one, and it could be your core ebook or you know, a webinar that you have on replay that folks can come to your site and they can watch and exchange an email address, or maybe it's your newsletter and you send it out every week. There should be at least one. Maybe it's your podcast. And then I personally believe there should be some sort of a paid offer as part of your lead gen strategy as well. And maybe you're spending too much time iterating and trying to find out what that is. But if you can figure out what that is and organize it in a way where you're doing things that are repeatable. Right. It's a process that's repeatable. it's not, maybe it's not completely scalable or there's a way for you to automate it so there is a level of time investment that needs to happen from a billable resource, and that's why those two KPIs that I mentioned are so important, right? The win rate of those entree offers and then the number of inquiries you get. So if you're getting a lot of inquiries for an offer, okay, there's something there. If you're not winning them, okay, then maybe you need to sharpen the iron. There was another KPI that I didn't mention that was expansion percent. So of the folks that took you up on your offer, delivered the offer. What percentage of those expanded into new opportunities?

Mark Wainwright: 28:25

Yeah, yeah. Good, good One that brings back these nightmares I have of this particular example where they're not converting any of this stuff. So that's, a challenge. So this is, good. This is an interesting place for us to explore, right? these offers, right? These lead gen offers free ones. Might be screamingly obvious to some people out there. Yeah, we do free offers, we do the webinars, we do the, you know, eBooks, we do all that sort of stuff. But then wandering into what does a paid offer look like? That's not part of our sort of service delivery, you know? You know, full price, sort of. Stack, right? where does this, how does a paid offer fit into our world of marketing and lead generation? That's super interesting. We talked about the pyramid and the pros and cons of both, and there's some subtlety and nuance. This is challenging stuff. This is not something you can just roll out and be hyper successful with. but yeah, this is, this has been a, good little adventure.

John Tyreman: 29:19

Yeah, so hopefully folks are,, are thinking through that and they're, we've opened their mind to maybe a new possibility or something that they hadn't thought about. And, my hope is that if just one person can. leave this episode and craft an offer and bring it to market and test it out. I'm happy we've done our job

Mark Wainwright: 29:38

Yeah, absolutely. it's worth exploring, for sure. John, thanks so much for, wandering through this, today. Until next time.

John Tyreman: 29:47

until next time.