Mark Wainwright 0:00

Somewhere in your firm, a misguided doer-seller is running through their pitch deck slide by slide while the client stopped listening two slides ago. Nobody noticed. Nobody asked a single question about what the client actually needs. Somewhere else, a deal fell through and someone's already got three reasons why it wasn't their fault. And in a conference room somewhere, someone's telling a client, "Trust us, we're the best," instead of asking questions, listening, and earning that trust. Some may see these as little things, but they are all a very big deal. Welcome to Breaking Biz Dev, and today we're gonna break down five small habits that quietly make or break a deal

John Tyreman 1:05

All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Breaking Biz Dev. I'm John, and he's Mark. And Mark, like you mentioned in that opening bit, we're gonna break down five little sales habits that make a big difference in your business development. How are you doing today, Mark?

Mark Wainwright 1:21

Good. I'm great. I'm great. These are, behaviors that I see, or don't see, in, people in the marketplace and frankly also in people that I work with, pretty closely. And, the people who are really doing well start to exhibit these behaviors. And, behaviors are one of those things where, you have to look closely and see that they're being, practiced, right? and I start to see the people who are starting to learn and understand and grow as, doer sellers in their organizations. They start to embrace these behaviors and start to practice them, to the point where, I ask someone, I was like, "Hey, did you make sure you, did you make sure you did that? Did you do this?" And they say, yeah, of course. That's just-- Mark, that's just how I do it." So those behaviors are transitioning to just how people do things, right? So it's great. I'd

John Tyreman 2:14

Totally. Yeah, and it takes a while to form habits too. I think it, like I was reading somewhere it takes 21 days of like dedicated effort every single day to develop a habit. So it's something that you have to be intentional about at first, but then it becomes second nature.

Mark Wainwright 2:29

Yeah. Or two years, with me hammering, you to get you to l- learn a certain behavior, right? funny.

John Tyreman 2:36

I guess it depends on what the habit is.

Mark Wainwright 2:38

yeah, for sure.

John Tyreman 2:39

here's the five sales behaviors. Proactivity, that's number one. Number two, ownership. Number three, curiosity and low self-orientation. Number four, situational awareness. And number five, humble confidence. So we're gonna break down each of these sales behaviors, and we've got a little bit of fun stuff up our sleeves, so little skits that we'll run through. so Mark, why don't we take us, should we start with proactivity? You wanna start there?

Mark Wainwright 3:09

Yeah, let's do that. And just the caveat on that list of five is that there's a lot of behaviors out there that, contribute to people being successful in this, world of professional services and sales. these are five, five big ones, I think. five top ones that, I see the successful people practicing. So yeah, first let's define it, right? What do I mean by proactivity? Proactivity is the practice of taking initiative, right? And anticipating future events, needs, or challenges of your clients rather than simply just reacting, to, to that stuff. we call that kind of like being a vendor. It's just reacting to stuff. It means shaping certain situations to your advantage and preventing problems and issues before they happen, rather than just, being in the today and just, adjusting to circumstances after they happened, that sort of thing. So There we go. We've defined proactivity, and that's what we're talking about.

John Tyreman 4:02

And there's a little bit of empathy that has to happen there too, because you need to think of the prospect in their shoes. What are they expecting? And try to think one or two steps ahead. Good. So what are the, what are some real world examples of behaviors that kind of exhibit proactivity?

Mark Wainwright 4:19

Yeah. Yeah. and we'll run through. I think we've got some good and bad behaviors that are, observable behaviors in all of these. and I just picked three that were off the top of my head, John. Like, here's three good behaviors, right? One, picking up the phone, right? It's that, that, that move, that little switch that flips in your brain that says, "I have to pick up the phone and talk to, this person now," 'cause there's an immediacy to this, and there's some urgency, and I need to have a synchronous conversation. I'm gonna pick up the phone and call, right? Another one is, imagining the next step or steps. Maybe you're in a sales process and you're s- starting to anticipate, the conversations or the steps that are gonna happen next, where the client is moving or going to move. whether you're-- you could be in, in a service delivery mode where you're anticipating, pitfalls or whatever else. So anticipation, right? Imagining the next steps, keeping your eyeballs not just focused on today, but tomorrow. And the third one related to that is getting out in front of problems. Whether you're in those initial sales steps and you're starting to see something bubbling up that could be problematic or, you're delivering a service, getting out in front of problems is a big one. So those are good ones. what about some bad ones,

John Tyreman 5:37

Yeah, flip a coin on that one. some bad behaviors related to proactivity. So I guess these aren't really proactive behaviors. These are more reactive behaviors. So

Mark Wainwright 5:48

is the bad stuff. All right

John Tyreman 5:50

number one, waiting for the RFP to drop.

Mark Wainwright 5:53

Yeah

John Tyreman 5:53

So just waiting in the wings for that RFP to hit your inbox so that you can bid on it. the second one here that we have is sending the proposal and then waiting for them to call you. the opposite of what you talked about before, picking up the phone and actually calling the prospect, calling the client.

Mark Wainwright 6:09

For

John Tyreman 6:09

and then the third bad behavior that we have is not changing anything to make sure that you win the next one. You're not learning from your mistakes. You're not licking your wounds and reflecting and looking in the mirror

Mark Wainwright 6:20

waiting for them to call you, right? That's, that's the kicker. when I talk to individuals about specific new business opportunities, I say, "Okay, what's the next step?" And if the first thing out of their mouth is, I'm waiting for them to decide or get back to me," or whatever else, then I'm just like, "Oh. Oh, okay."

John Tyreman 6:40

speaking of the waiting game, Mark, let's play a little bit of a waiting game ourselves. So we have these, y- you came up with these little skits, and I actually think they're a really, they're a really clever idea. this is, this will be the first one. This one is called The Waiting Game

Mark Wainwright 6:57

The Springfield Center project wraps up in three weeks, John. How's it going?

John Tyreman 7:01

Yeah, fine, I think. Um, you know, they haven't reached out or, or mentioned anything, so I'm just kinda waiting

Mark Wainwright 7:08

John, the, the team's over budget on this project, and we missed the last two milestone check-ins. Did you know that?

John Tyreman 7:16

Uh, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, I saw that. But Mark, we're super busy. Um, and I was just waiting for them to flag it so that it becomes more urgent

Mark Wainwright 7:25

know, by the time they call you, John, it's often too late

John Tyreman 7:29

okay. I'll, I'll pick up the phone, I'll call them now before they have to call me. I'll make the first move

Mark Wainwright 7:38

Sorry, you're the fall guy on that one, John. You were just screwing up left and right. But it sounds like you learned a lesson at the end right there, is that, right? We don't wanna wait for the client to call us.

John Tyreman 7:48

No. always be one step ahead of the

Mark Wainwright 7:50

Good. All right, moving on. Behavior number two is ownership, right? And ownership is defined as, acting with responsibility for your actions and the related outcomes rather than just doing what you're told, right? It's a mindset thing and, like we said, it's a behavior here where an individual treats an organizational task or situation as their own. They grab ahold of it and it's theirs. They embrace accountability, initiative, and long-term commitment to not just the work today, but the ultimate results of the client. So that is ownership

John Tyreman 8:29

All right, Mark. What are some good behaviors that you see when the people that you're working with take ownership of sales opportunities?

Mark Wainwright 8:37

yeah. First is setting typically revenue goals, annually, quarterly, whatever else it is, and holding yourself accountable to those goals. That's a good one. That's a good first one. Next one is identifying the right opportunities and the right clients and chasing after it, right? So it's owning a specific pursuit with a client and owning the results, good or bad. And, this is on you to win this client or win these, win this new work. And the last little bit here, the third one, third behavior, is assuming responsibility for the losses, right? Owning that, and then, like we touched on earlier, learning from it, right? So those are three good behaviors. Flip side of the coin, John, what are the three bad behaviors?

John Tyreman 9:30

the first one we have here is assuming something is everyone's responsibility. shared accountability is no accountability, I suppose.

Mark Wainwright 9:39

Good

John Tyreman 9:40

blaming the client for not choosing you. It's their fault. They were at-- Right. Pointing, pointing the fingers, the blame game.

Mark Wainwright 9:47

So easy

John Tyreman 9:49

and then finally avoiding self-reflection and the need to change. So not going through that introspective exercise of what went wrong, what could I have done differently, what should I do differently moving forward?

Mark Wainwright 10:01

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Great. So all bad behaviors, not exhibiting, great ownership habits. Okay, skit time. John, the client said the last deliverable was late. What happened?

John Tyreman 10:20

Mark, honestly, it was the designer. They didn't pick up the needed changes and didn't send me the files in time, and it just slipped

Mark Wainwright 10:28

Hold on. You're the project lead. Whose job was it to catch all of that early?

John Tyreman 10:33

Uh, uh, I mean, I guess I could have followed up with the design team sooner

Mark Wainwright 10:38

Yeah. Could have doesn't fix the client relationship. What are you gonna do today?

John Tyreman 10:46

You know what, Mark? You're right. I'll own this one. I'll call the client, I'll explain and give them a firm new date that we'll stick to

Mark Wainwright 10:58

John, you're learning, you're learning here. This is so good. This is so good. I love this growth that I'm seeing just right here. It's so funny. All right, moving on. Number three. curiosity and low self-orientation, and we've touched on this in the past. This is a recurring theme for us here, and this is defined as the genuine disciplined desire, and I like that word disciplined, genuine disciplined desire to understand a prospect's business challenges, their goals, their motivations, et cetera, right? Coupled with low self-orientation, this keeps the conversation focused on the client, not you.

John Tyreman 11:40

what are some good behaviors related to curiosity?

Mark Wainwright 11:43

Yeah. So one, preparing for a conversation, whether it's a sales conversation or some other conversation, with good research and good questions, right? Preparation, right? Being prepared for that one. Another one is reflecting back what you've heard in that conversation and what you've learned, right? So this is that, this is, not just, going through the conversation, say, "Hey, great call. Here's our glossy brochure." Actually reflecting back everything you heard and learned, so the client really understands the fact that you listened and, you get it. so that's a second one. Third, telling stories about your clients and the success they achieve with your help, right? Rather than the, "Here's our expertise, here's our resumes," all that stuff, right? So telling stories about our clients.

John Tyreman 12:39

I like that last one because it's all, it's, it truly is about the, your client's success. It's not about your success and that is just an important framing right there.

Mark Wainwright 12:49

Yeah. good behaviors. What about some bad ones?

John Tyreman 12:53

the antithesis of this. First up, pulling out the slide deck. we don't like that. uh, the second bad behavior, and if you're... You know what? Honestly, Mark, folks that are listening to this who haven't heard that episode are probably like, "What are they talking about? Slide decks are just an important part of the conversation." Go back and listen to that episode on why slides don't sell.

Mark Wainwright 13:12

Yeah.

John Tyreman 13:13

All right. The second bad behavior that we have here are zero follow-up. So were you even listening to the conversation? Do you have those follow-up questions? You're not asking follow-up. You're just looking to go to the next part of your agenda or slide deck or what have you. All right. And the third bad behavior that we have is the work and the results are yours, not theirs, to what I was talking about with the story. Our project, not my clients achieved this outcome.

Mark Wainwright 13:42

Yeah. yeah. For sure. and again, just to, make sure that everybody's tracking with us here is like we're talking about these things from a behavioral standpoint. what, as a sort of sales coach in the role that I play with my firms is that I'm looking for observable behaviors. So this isn't like me constantly telling something, someone to do something and then them going and doing it or maybe not doing it, right? This is just people doing this stuff on their own, right? These are sort of default settings for people, which is the, is hopefully the big thing that we're talking about here is that we want that switch to flip in someone's head and says, "Oh yeah, of course I'm not gonna go show the slides." Who's gonna do that? That would be silly, right? So these are observable behaviors that people are just this is how they just show up, right? So that's some good ones and some bad ones right there related to curiosity and empathy.

John Tyreman 14:29

totally. And so I guess like the first step is just being aware of this w- within yourself, like l- looking at you from, third person's point of view and seeing this for yourself

Mark Wainwright 14:39

Actually, great point. Great point, for sure.

John Tyreman 14:42

So we have another skit related to curiosity and low self-orientation. This one, Mark, is called "Me, Me, Me."

Mark Wainwright 14:52

John, how'd the discovery call go with the new prospective client today?

John Tyreman 14:56

Oh, Mark, it was fantastic. I walked them through our whole process, all of our pricing, all of our case stories, all of our resumes. It was great

Mark Wainwright 15:05

Wait a minute. time out. did you ask them what problem they're actually trying to solve?

John Tyreman 15:10

No. I figured our pitch covered what most people really need, right?

Mark Wainwright 15:15

John, that's not curiosity. That's more like a script, right? What-- tell me, what do you actually know about their business?

John Tyreman 15:23

I glanced over the lead report before I got on the call. Uh, but, you know, that's a fair point, Mark. I'll give him a call, and I will listen first this time

Mark Wainwright 15:34

Good

John Tyreman 15:37

That was a fun one.

Mark Wainwright 15:38

it's the, it's worth a laugh, John, but I've had that same conversation multiple times.

John Tyreman 15:43

I'm, I bet you have. I mean, that's, to your point about behaviors, that is the first thing that you think of if you're new to sales is on that first call you wanna make a good impression. You wanna lead them through everything. You wanna shove as much information. But, no, I, it's, it's a point well taken.

Mark Wainwright 15:59

Yeah, When you're just learning all this stuff, right, that's not a default behavior. They're like, if we don't talk about ourselves at all in that conversation, how are they gonna know that we're different or better or whatever else?" and I just say, "You're gonna shut the heck up. That's how you're gonna be different," right? 'Cause all these other folks they're talking to are just yakking away, right? You're just gonna shut up. there you go. All right. There's me, me, me. You're listening to breaking biz dev

John Tyreman 16:23

the podcast that beats up, breaks down, and redefines business development for the professional services firms of tomorrow. Your hosts are John Tyerman, founder of Red Cedar Marketing, the podcast marketing company for experts and professional services firms,

Mark Wainwright 16:37

And Mark Wainwright, principal consultant and founder of Wainwright Insight, the fractional sales manager and sales consultant to professional services firms.

John Tyreman 16:47

If you find this podcast helpful, please help us by following the show and leaving a review on Apple podcasts

Mark Wainwright 16:53

and now back to the show. All right. number four, the fourth behavior is situational awareness. Situational awareness is the ability to read the room, to pick up on subtle silent, like subtle client cues and adapt things in real time, right? It means prioritizing relevance over a rigid script, allowing you to understand a buyer's unique circumstances, of course, in, if you're in a sales conversation, and pivot your questions, pivot the conversation, and the ultimate offer, I will tell you, John, with, left-brained, technically-minded individuals, this is one of the behaviors that is the most challenging, for sure

John Tyreman 17:32

it's funny, Mark, I, I liken this to-- I play in a band on the weekends and I play the drums, right? And it's very much like reading the c- reading the crowd. There's a couple songs where we're playing and we've got basically an option to either drop it down to half-time or bump it up to double-time, and it all depends on the crowd and if they're feeling it or not. Do we wanna just like kinda be, calmer and relaxing or do we wanna bring up the energy? so

Mark Wainwright 17:58

yeah. I like that. that's a great analogy for sure. All right.

John Tyreman 18:02

So what are some good behaviors around in, w- within a sales context around situational awareness?

Mark Wainwright 18:08

Yeah. so one is, maybe you're in a sales conversation coming in being prepared to let those, let the conversation run around a little bit, but making sure that, you have some goals, you have some objectives that you've set around that conversation, and making sure that you can pull things back in and achieve what you want to achieve in those conversations. too many times, John, those conversations will just run wild and, my after conversation, chat with the doer seller is, "Well, how'd it go?" And they're like, "Wow, we just went off on this tangent," I was like: Oh, man. I get it, but man, you gotta reel it back in. So that's one. That's one. Number two is leaving space in a conversation for a response and a reaction, I think a lot of times many people are super uncomfortable with silence, with, pauses in a conversation, and they just wanna fill it up with, more talking, this is an important one because some clients will be very responsive, others will not. So your situation awareness is, okay, I need to understand the personalities of these people I'm talking to and, what is their cadence of communication? Are there people that when you ask them a question, are they, do they respond immediately or are they very thoughtful about it and it takes them a minute to come up with a response, that sort of thing. So that's a good one there. Third one, being ready to walk away, right? Always having this option in your pocket that says, look, if you know, again, if this is a, a sales conversation and, you're entertaining this new client and things are looking good, but some red flag pops up, you need to always have the option in your head that says, at any moment we can and should walk away if things aren't headed in our direction. So that's a big situational awareness one

John Tyreman 20:04

Those are good. let's flip it over. let's talk about some bad ones. Mark, you wanna run through this?

Mark Wainwright 20:08

one bad behavior is painting yourself into a corner, as I often call it, with one, one option, one offer, Cause you could completely miss the mark just coming in with that one, one thing, and now, now you're like, great, I guess we don't have anything for you. So similar to that, number two, right? Going in with a rigid plan, Not allowing any flexibility, not allowing the client to wander, not presenting an opportunity for you to explore in areas that you weren't really prepared to explore. Maybe something comes up and you're like, "Ooh, tell me more," right? that, that situational awareness is important. And the last one, very similar to what I mentioned, is being able to recognize the red flags,

John Tyreman 20:48

Yeah, that's a good

Mark Wainwright 20:49

You're not gonna, you're not gonna be able to come into a, a conversation just knowing when those flags are gonna pop up and what they are, So you need to be constantly, have your sort of radar up, right? And make sure that, if, and some people even say, "Oh, it was just, it was kind of a yellow flag," right? In the, right in the p- in the postmortem, in the conversation afterwards that I'm having with, the doer sellers that I'm working with, they'll say, "It was a little bit of a yellow flag." And I'll say, "Dude, that was a red flag. clearly a red flag. When they told you the last four consultants they worked with were really expensive, and that's why they fired them, that's not a red flag to you?"

John Tyreman 21:24

Calibrate your color codes, everybody,

Mark Wainwright 21:27

Yeah, there you go. There you go.

John Tyreman 21:28

all right, so we've got another skit for you. So this one is called "Reading the Room."

Mark Wainwright 21:37

John, how'd the pricing conversation go with that client?

John Tyreman 21:40

It went great. I ran through the full proposal just like we planned

Mark Wainwright 21:44

Hey, did, um, did you notice that they just kept glancing at their phone and cutting you off?

John Tyreman 21:49

not really. I was, I just wanted to get through the part about our experiences and our resumes,

Mark Wainwright 21:55

John, that's the, John, that's the room trying to tell you something, and I think you might have missed it. What, thinking about that, what would you want, what would you have done otherwise?

John Tyreman 22:05

You know what, now that you mention it, I do recall them interrupting me a few times. And, it, I, i- if I was going back, I would've paused, said, "Hey, is this still a good time?" maybe take the conversation in a different direction, maybe refocus it a little bit more on understanding why they're interrupting. Ye- yeah, now that you mention it, that probably could've gone a little bit better. Hey, we're, we're, we're not winning any Oscars here, but you get the point

Mark Wainwright 22:34

We're not winning Oscars, John, but I'll tell you what, if people listening to the podcast have been around long enough, they've all been in this situation where the client is clearly, or the prospect, or just whoever's on the other side of the table is just clearly checked out, right? And you're like, "What am I gonna do in order to get this thing back on track?" And one of the things, like you mentioned there, is that, oh, let's put the spotlight back on them and let them talk, right? So there's no more checking the phone and there's no more I should be doing something else somewhere else, kind of thing. So

John Tyreman 23:04

You can tell too, if you're on Zoom, if you see like lighting changes, that they're going between tabs on their browser, they're not paying attention. So that's another little visual cue

Mark Wainwright 23:14

That's funny. all right. last but not least, our fifth behavior here that we mentioned is humble confidence, right? And I don't even know if this is a term, John, but maybe this is something that I made up. But humble confidence in sales, right? Now that we're here, we're talking about sales, so humble confidence in selling is the balance of knowing your value and trusting your expertise while actively putting the prospect's needs before your ego. It means being helpful, a, it means being a consultative peer rather than an aggressive, salesy, pushy, consultant.

John Tyreman 23:52

Some might might see humble confidence and see that as an oxymoron, but I think the way that you laid that out makes a lot of sense. So let's bring some examples. Mark, what are some good behaviors that you've observed, that kind of wrap up into humble confidence?

Mark Wainwright 24:07

yeah. So admitting you don't have the answer now, but making sure that you follow up on a question that was asked, during the conversation. Easy one, Second one, entertaining new prospective clients with what I call cautious optimism, right? Not the, "Oh my gosh, this is gonna be great. We have to, fold ourselves in half and bend over backwards in order to win this client," right? Approaching them like you would any other situation that says, we have to make sure that we're a good fit and that they have a problem that we can solve, and frankly do a fantastic job at, so that they're a, a good, long-time client." Third, if it all doesn't pan out, redirecting prospective clients to someone who might be able to help them better than you, right? So it's if those question marks crop up, if the yellow flags or the red flags in, those early conversations come up and, the client has a specific need and "You know what? I actually have a someone we've maybe collaborated with in the past or just another consulting firm out there that could actually achieve what they need to achieve better, faster, cheaper," whatever else. Then having the confidence to just say, "Look, it, it's, it sounds to us like you would be best served, working with these folks. Let me make a connection here and off you go." those are good behaviors for sure

John Tyreman 25:35

I-- And that last one I think is, is really great because that kind of three X's the trust, that there's like a multiplier effect, right? Because you're helping the prospective client, you're helping whoever you refer them to, and then thirdly, you're not taking on work that you need to stretch and figure out how you're going to deliver on it. that's a huge opportunity cost, cost savings

Mark Wainwright 26:00

Yeah. yeah. And that's a total, it's a karma thing, right? I just think that's just, if you let those folks go and they'll be best- b- better served, they'll come back at some point when they have something that you guys can really help them with. So flip side of the coin, bad behaviors, John

John Tyreman 26:13

some bad behaviors that relate to humble confidence. So saying yes to everything, and, we've all been there as consultants where you want to say yes to something. You think that you can deliver on it, but sometimes that's not the right course of action. Maybe you don't have the right expertise or experience, or that kind of work doesn't have the margins you need, or whatever the case may be. Saying yes to everything is bad behavior. All right. Number two, discounting. So when you're discounting your services, you're discounting your expertise, the value that you create. You're signaling to prospects that you are a low-cost provider and that-- That's not an area that you want to play in, especially as an expert. All right. Third on the list, some bad behaviors, that relate to humble confidence. So emailing that PDF rather than having a conversation around it, you've hammered this home, Mark. Synchronous conversations to walk through proposals. Don't just send off that PDF

Mark Wainwright 27:13

Yeah. that doesn't exhibit that, that confidence that we're looking for, that, I'm prepared to have a conversation where I can walk through the dollars and cents and the work to be done and, do that live, because if you're, if you're trying to hide behind the proposal or you're afraid the client's gonna say no to the numbers on the, on the screen or the, on, on whatever you give them or, then, there's no-- you have no confidence in that at all, and maybe you'll just default back to that second one, which was discounting, right? So not good

John Tyreman 27:48

here's our final skit that we have for you listeners. This one's called We Are the Best

Mark Wainwright 27:57

John, the client pushed back hard on our timeline. How'd you handle it?

John Tyreman 28:02

I told them that we're the best in the industry. They just need to trust the process.

Mark Wainwright 28:07

Time out. Time out. Did that, did that actually address their concern?

John Tyreman 28:13

I don't know. They, not really. They just got quieter after that

Mark Wainwright 28:17

Oof. Confidence isn't exis- insisting that you're right. What could you have said instead?

John Tyreman 28:24

I suppose I could've acknowledged that timeline didn't fit what their expectations were. I suppose I could've explained where I was coming from and then asked what timeline could work better for them

Mark Wainwright 28:40

So good. So good. John, the growth you have experienced through these five behaviors from, the stubbing your toe and really screwing up to, recognizing, where you've gone wrong and improving is dramatic. So really well done

John Tyreman 28:56

thank you, Mark. I've, experienced a lot of growth on this podcast episode.

Mark Wainwright 29:01

Good. All right, so that, that's our five, folks. So there are others that we, have clearly discussed in the podcast previously. There's others that are out there. We would love to hear other behaviors that, w- weigh in on comments when we post these on LinkedIn or elsewhere. that would be good. But yeah, these are five behaviors. Some would consider them little things, but ultimately they end up being a really big deal, right? Proactivity, ownership, curiosity, and low self-orientation, situational awareness, and that funny thing, humble confidence. That's the five

John Tyreman 29:35

So as a quick go and do for listeners out there, take a look at your last sales call. Record your next sales call if you don't have one to look back on, and then just watch it with an opened mind and take a look for some of these behaviors, good or bad, so that you kinda understand where you're starting from

Mark Wainwright 29:51

I like it. Good stuff. All right, John, I think this has been a fun episode. Until next time

John Tyreman 29:56

Until next time