John 0:00

On the last episode, we talked about why three option tables work in professional services, but how do firms get started putting together options of their own? What are the best ways to display all of that complex information? Let's talk about it on the podcast.

Mark 0:35

Hello and welcome to Breaking Biz Dev everyone. Welcome marketers, sales professionals, firm owners, operators, and doer. Sellers. Last time John and I got together, we talked about three option pricing. This time John, we are going to dig into the nitty gritty. We're gonna talk about three option pricing tables.

John 0:59

mark. I'm excited about this one because on our last episode. I wanted to jump into the details and spots and I think, knowing that we had this episode, it just made me feel good that we can get into some of the detailed parts of this.

Mark 1:12

so we're gonna bounce around to some ideas. A lot of times when I talk to my clients and they say, mark, we just need a template. and I can just run from there. but as we will, discuss and hopefully everyone comes to realize that There are many different ways to approach three options and how they're assembled into a table. And today we're gonna talk about some, some. Kind of real examples. And I think John, there's gonna be some way for us to show some of these visual, examples. maybe this leans into the YouTube channel a little bit where we can show some random options. who knows? So, we'll go that way. So there will be some visual aids for everyone Listening on. light, your imagination on fire and just picture in your mind kind of some of the stuff we're moving through here

John 1:58

Yeah. For our listening audience, imagine that B2B SaaS product that you use on a day-to-day basis. If you were just to go to their pricing page, you're likely to run into one of these three option pricing tables that we're talking about. We're just advocating that, hey, let's take what's working in this industry and let's apply it to our industry.

Mark 2:18

Yeah.

John 2:19

Mark, before we get into some of the examples, I just wanna remind listeners to, rate the podcast on Apple, Spotify. Wherever you listen, send us a review. We'll read your review live on the podcast and subscribe wherever you like to hang out with us, whether that's Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or LinkedIn. Alright, mark, so let's get into some of the different examples of three option tables. let's start with this first one that we have here, based on the level of your involvement.

Mark 2:49

So yeah. Level of involvement. This is one flavor of three options that, I've seen my clients use. So option one would be the do it yourself. And that means that maybe you know, you're a DIY prospective client and you just need a little bit of help. Let's go all the way to option three. option one, DIY. Option three, fully custom. We do it all for you. we tie it in a nice little red bow and deliver it and whatever it is at the end. And option two is a hybrid, right? Meaning that we share the load. You do some stuff, we do some stuff. we can work through what the details are on that, but. There's one way to put together three options. What do you think the pros and cons of that one are John?

John 3:38

Yeah. As someone who's used this flavor of three option tables, I've got some firsthand experience at this. So I think with the DIY solution in professional services, I think this works really well for. Firms that maybe they have a video course on a specific topic that they've productized their service offering in some way. So if you're listening to this podcast and you've got a course, this could be, one option that you could use to frame with some other different options. so that's kind of like one pro. Around that. If you don't have that, it can be kind of challenging to put that thought work into developing that solution. I think it's highly worth it. those are some of my thoughts on that.

Mark 4:21

No, that's a, it's a good one. that's one way to apply it. I think this works well for firms who can dial up and dial back their particular involvement easily in certain things that they do. I've seen engineering firms. Do this maybe when they're working with other engineering firms. That happens a lot of time, is that firms work with other firms and the firms share some similar, capabilities or expertise, but maybe one has some in a particular area that others do not. So they can dial that up or down, whether that, okay, we're just gonna come alongside you and help, or whether we're gonna just take this entire bit of work off buyers and just do it ourselves. And then, some cons of this are. they're gonna pick the middle option, right? It was like, all right, we're gonna do a hybrid approach, so you're gonna do some, we're gonna do some, and then you start walking down the path with them. Things can start to get pushed and pulled around in ways that you didn't want them to. It's like, oh, you know what, on second thought, we're just gonna go ahead and do it ourselves, and lo and behold, maybe you helped them along that path a little bit. So now they feel comfortable and confident enough to be able to do it themselves.

John 5:24

yeah, like I didn't even think about that. With that hybrid approach, you're handcuffed to the client also and them holding up their side of the deal, right? if they need to put some effort into the engagement and they're not holding up their end, then you look bad as a result.

Mark 5:38

So what's another example that we talked about, John?

John 5:43

the entree engagement. And we've touched on this in the past. there are folks out there who, really kind of champion this idea. Jonathan Stark comes to mind. the three options here are, all right, option one. Let's just go through sort of either it's like a deep dive tech, like an audit or a road mapping exercise. It's kind of like a standalone service offering that you can offer to your clients so that they can kind of dip their toe in the water, so to speak. They can take a bite out of the apple. and then option three on the other side of the scale. This is the full project. This is everything. This is like soup to nuts. This is what it could cost. Then in the middle you've got, here's the full project, but a tighter scope. And so you show the full range of the options, option one road mapping, and then all the way to option three, which is a full project scope.

Mark 6:36

I have seen this sort of just get started, entree offering even happen with architectural firms that I work with. they'll call it not to be confused with the discovery conversation in sales. they'll offer, a discovery service where they're just going to learn more. Where they'll take things to a certain point, they'll do a certain amount of. Work to a certain point, and then they'll be able to understand what comes next, right? They'll be able to get to a certain point under contract. And then they'll be able to make smart decisions on what happens next after that. So I've seen that. work really well. The other thing that's happening with this, and this happens a lot of times with these three options, is that we show them a just get started price, which is typically a really low dollar amount, fairly low, relatively speaking. They might even think it's, wow, that's expensive now you know, one of the powers of these three options, right, is on the other end, option three. We show them the all in, kitchen, sink, everything, or price on the other end. They're like, whoa, that's really expensive. Um, and yeah, do we need, or we're just not ready to make that decision? And frankly, maybe they even look at the a second option as well, and they're like. Okay. That's not as much money, but that's still, there's still a lot going on there. There's still a lot of work. There's still a lot of decisions to be made and everything else, so there's that. So maybe they're like, oh yeah, maybe the just get started option is ultimately a good idea.

John 8:07

And I think this brings up a great example of, why the second option is not always the option that you would recommend.

Mark 8:13

Yeah. Good point.

John 8:14

So in this example, option one, that road roadmapping just gets started in depth audit. However you want to package that and offer that to your clients. That's the preferred option here because it brings clarity and answers all those questions. Do we need that full scope? not just for the client, but for you as a service provider as well. If you go through that exercise, that road roadmapping exercise, you have clarity. Into what the next step that solution is.

Mark 8:41

The middle option is not always the preferred or recommended one. Oftentimes there, are other options. one of the things that people believe is that, making more decisions is harder and more difficult for people. So we just want our clients to make one decision. We want them to just sign off on the big dollar amount. So they have to make one big decision. Actually, it's easier from a cognitive load standpoint for people to make multiple small decisions than it is to make one big one. So this opens up that Cognitive benefit of, oh good. I can just make one small decision and that'll move us forward. towards achieving this bigger thing that we want. So I can just make one decision that makes us, move forward one little step, and that's easier from a decision making standpoint. The other point I wanted to make on this one is that this example that we just talked through is a great example of foreshadowing the future. of things like your option three, the full price, the big dollar amount, foreshadows. The possibility of that expenditure, and people are thinking, there's no way it's ever gonna be that. But lo and behold, if they change their mind, if they make bad decisions along the way, if their communication isn't good, if ultimately it ends up not being a fantastic engagement you could see yourself there, right? you could end up there and sometimes you have, sometimes things have come off the rails. There's been problems and team members change or scope changes, or you come across things that were unknown, so you end up at this big dollar amount. So that's one thing I wanted to mention is that this example. foreshadows the future in that third option, which is a lot of times a good way to communicate to your client that, look, realistically, we could end up here.

John 10:27

Point. I guess those are all some really good pros for this entree engagement. Can you see any cons, other than you've gotta go through contracting a few more times?

Mark 10:38

There's gonna be some iterations if they end up signing off on the road mapping thing, you do have to go back to them and have the sales conversation again. that's a downside to it. some people their brains can short circuit. So hard on the full price, big option that, they just, they lose it.

John 10:56

lost.

Mark 10:57

Right. Right, right. That doesn't happen a lot, and listeners out there don't think that that automatically happens. It just, it doesn't, if you're giving them other options, this would be someone who's kind of looking at this unreasonably, right? We're someone just was so outta whack that they thought that, all the dollars. on the page that you're showing them would be radically less. this is someone their world is divorced, completely from reality. so yeah, there's some cons to it. as well, and then there's also the, if they lo and behold do sign off on the middle option, that's the full project, but a very tight scope as we mentioned, that, having a very, very tightly scoped project typically means that, nobody be changing their minds. you said two rounds of review. There's not six, right? there's all these different permutations that start to crop up. one, maybe it's a con, maybe it's just something you have to be super disciplined about is that if lo and behold in this option, someone does sign off on a very tightly scoped full project option, which would be the second option in this example here, is that you have to be a hound dog.

John 11:57

a good point. You

Mark 11:58

Go outta scope or whatever else is that you have to be really vigilant about it. And some people are uncomfortable with that. but yeah, you have to constantly come back to your client and it's no, actually that's outside of that's actually part of option three that you didn't pick before. So you have to be prepared to have those challenging conversations.

John 12:14

Yeah. Mark, lead off with this next one.'cause I like the way that you frame this.

Mark 12:18

Yeah, so this is different from a, most people default to sort of, scope, right? There's like three options. It's like, small, medium, large, whatever. They just default to that sort of mindset of, okay, I need to put three options in front of a client. This one assumes that maybe there is. An established or defined, work product or scope This one talks about compensation. this could even be, a second. three option conversation, maybe you've already had the initial conversation about the scope and they're like, all right, yeah. So we'll do the middle one, but we're still a little bit unsure. we want to be making this decision a little bit more confidently, So then maybe you come in this with oh, great, now we've got some other options to talk about compensation. option one, fixed price. Here's the dollar amount that's set. if everything goes great, we can guarantee that you're not gonna spend a penny more for that. Option two is a fixed hybrid pricing approach with some incentive, meaning that maybe there's a part of the work to be done that's a fixed, and then there's an additional hybrid that has associated some incentives on top of it, meaning that, if things happen.

John 13:39

or a bonus.

Mark 13:40

Yeah, or a bonus or if things happen on time or if things are delivered early, or maybe it's a time thing, maybe it's just a quality thing or whatever variables are at play, you can put those on the table. So there's two parts to this. Part of it's fixed and part of it is some incentive or hybrid. And the third is fully performance based, meaning that your compensation as a consultant is completely on the table, right? Obviously you have to agree to the terms. if you deliver this thing or if the client achieves these particular outcomes, within this period of time and they achieve the client's desired results, et cetera, et you are paid this amount. if you exceed those things, you do it faster, you do it better, then it's, two times that amount if you completely blow it. Then nothing

John 14:28

it's zero.

Mark 14:29

Could be zero. that would be a tough one to sign off on for sure. but that's, those are, there you go. What do you think, John? Pros and cons to this?

John 14:36

Yeah. First of all, my mind goes to like inception, right? That movie with Leonardo DiCaprio where he goes into the dream within a dream. So we've got options within options.

Mark 14:46

we do have options. Absolutely. Yeah.

John 14:48

obviously there's downside because, there's things that are outside of your control. But like you mentioned, if you've got your delivery ironed out, your processes are good, you understand the scope, you understand the challenge, then why not wager on your ability to deliver?

Mark 15:03

and I think that's a pro, for both parties in this situation they can establish some, skin in the game and some real clarity around price. Now the other thing we're talking about in this compensation option is risk, right? So option one, where it's a fixed price ultimately puts the risk on the consultant. Because the consultant now has that big dollar amount written on the wall, and they have to deliver within that. They can't go beyond it, or they just don't make any money. It's risky, but hopefully they're good enough that. They can do it. And maybe Even make a good profit on it. But from a client perspective, the fixed price is, maybe it's a big number, maybe it's a high number, but they're just about guaranteed they're never gonna pay anything more than that. So from a sort of risk and assurance perspective, it's it's a sure bet. On the other end, the third option, which is that fully performance based option, it shifts the risk actually to the client because the client now is not clear at all what they're gonna pay. Sure, they could come out on the upside of this and pay less. Dollars out of pocket, but that would also mean that they wouldn't be achieving what they wanted to achieve. ultimately if the client ends up paying less or nothing and the performance option means that it was a waste of their time, it's like they didn't do what they said they were gonna do, so we didn't pay'em. it's still risky for the client because if the consultant just overachieve everything, then they're like, oh, shoot, now we have to pay, 50% or a hundred percent on top of that original dollar amount. but maybe it was worth it because they did an amazing job and they did it in less time. The middle one is a mix, right? The middle one says, we're gonna share a little bit of that back and forth, right? So we're gonna have a fixed price part of this. There's a variable components of this. So both parties perceive different risk, from those two components. So that's, definitely a consideration in this is that, people get so obsessed about pricing and dollars and amounts and everything else, but I was like, when you start getting into this point, people start talking about risk, And this is a good one to surface that this technique, these three options that we have in this sort of compensation example is a good way to look at risk.

Mark Wainwright 17:19

You're listening to breaking biz dev

John Tyreman 17:21

the podcast that beats up, breaks down, and redefines business development for the professional services firms of tomorrow. Your hosts are John Tyerman, founder of Red Cedar Marketing, the podcast marketing company for experts and professional services firms,

Mark Wainwright 17:36

And Mark Wainwright, principal consultant and founder of Wainwright Insight, the fractional sales manager and sales consultant to professional services firms.

John Tyreman 17:45

If you find this podcast helpful, please help us by following the show and leaving a review on Apple podcasts

Mark Wainwright 17:51

and now back to the show.

John 17:54

going back to our mantra, like at this point, if we're talking about compensation, we're talking about how our clients wanna work with us, not if they wanna work with us. mark, we've got another example here. and this is similar to compensation, but this one is about payment. Let's, tee up this example.

Mark 18:12

this could even slide its way into sort of your final negotiation. who knows, this could be really, really interesting for someone way up front in your sales conversations. you never know, but this one's about. Ultimate payment. and, working in professional services, everybody out there knows that in some situations actually getting paid for the work you do can be a little tricky sometimes. And it sounds weird and there are some, consultants and clients out there that, there. this is an absolute Absolutely. you do the work, you get paid right. And that's how it works. But I have clients, I'd say all my clients. Have, clients or customers of theirs who are slow to pay? they sent them the invoice and it's been 45 days and they're not really sure what's going on. maybe Jonathan in accounting, lost the email or whatever, we don't get paid. So they've got this accounts receivable thing going on and all that stuff. So this one's payment. All right, so here's our three options. Option number one is the customer. The client pays upfront a hundred percent. The consultant gets paid a hundred percent upfront, but the client gets a discount. I like that.

John 19:27

So this is if I keep going back to these software products, but this like if you switch that button from monthly to annual you, and you get two months or whatever.

Mark 19:35

Yeah. let's go to the other end, option three on this one. You get paid as the consultant, you get paid a hundred percent at the very end. and who knows, this could be a pretty significant effort, right? You get paid a hundred percent of the end, but the client has to pay you more.

John 19:51

Interesting. Okay.

Mark 19:53

And then the one in the middle. Maybe this falls into sort of the regular way that you know clients and consultants are used to working, is that there's just a monthly thing, right? Just usual monthly. At the end of the month, we'll send you your invoice and you just pay us in whatever days and we're good. So there you go. Pros and cons. What do you think? I think we've hinted at a few of'em, but

John 20:16

Yeah, I think so. Like, well there's the risk aspect too, right? So on option one, the risk is on the client because, they've paid for it all. And now are they gonna get the work that they paid for?

Mark 20:29

So then we offer them a discount to mitigate some of that risk It's like, oh, you end up, You end up paying less, so it's less risky. Got it. So we're trying to got Yep, totally.

John 20:39

Yep. And then on the other end of the spectrum that's flipped because the upside for the client or for the consultant is there. but they've gotta deliver on the work first,

Mark 20:48

Yeah. They run the risk and the option three, where they get paid all at the end is that they run the risk of not getting paid. We delivered the work and we didn't get paid, and That gets messy. super messy, but yeah. There's all kinds of examples where maybe the client that you're going to start working with, has a sort of cash situation where they can't pay you or it would be nearly impossible for them to pay you. now, or a certain amount during the work, and they have to wait until the end, and then somebody flips a switch or they get some other funding or whatever else. So you're like, okay, great. You can pay us at the end, we're basically being a bank. So you're gonna charge us some interest on this whole sort of usual sort of pay monthly thing. You can pay us at the end, but you're gonna ultimately pay us more.

John 21:34

But that's only valuable to the client if they're in that situation. So if you understand that, then you can build that into your options and pricing.

Mark 21:41

Right. This is that meaningful and valuable thing. certain industries it's irrelevant. others, it's critical, so that's one of the things you learn early on in your discovery conversations is like, would it make any difference if we talked about this? And sometimes I'd be like, no, not at all. And others would be like, wow, yes. Let's talk about that.

John 21:59

I thought one thing that we talked about when we were, outlining this episode is the concept of naming each of these different options. I love this because you're packaging it up in a way and you're bringing context at a higher level Again, this is a tool for a synchronous conversation. You want your counterpart to be able to distill the information. Simply titling or naming each of those different options is a way for them to see at a glance and to signal to them what that option is about. And then they can unpack the details as they work down the tables and see the check marks and everything else. But, I wanted to start there because I thought that was probably one of the most important elements.

Mark 22:42

So yeah, what we're talking about here is that not calling it option one, option two or option three, calling it something else, calling it basic. Standard, premium, And we've come across this all the time, but, it's really important because what you start to see behaviorally, what you'll start to see in these conversations as you are talking with your prospective clients through these tables, that both of you start to reference these options as the name. There's some clarity if you name them properly and name them well, people start referring to them very easily. It's very common sort of nomenclature. The other thing is that if you. Do your homework in naming these, you can name them in ways where each option has some level of resonance with the client. if you ultimately want to steer them towards the sort of standard, option, then you can name that sort of standard middle option, something that you believe they will connect with. you're proposing work with someone who you think, oh, these are the kind of folks that, they're not gonna lowball everything, but they're also don't need the fancy, high end version that they just need the regular version. I'm gonna call them middle option, regular, and they're gonna love it. conversely. If you're working with the high flyers, you're like, these folks don't do anything low dollar, then you're gonna name, the appropriate option. Something that connects with them, something that resonates with them, and that works.

John 24:15

Yep. It's kind of like a branding or a packaging exercise

Mark 24:18

Yep,

John 24:18

going through and naming your product.

Mark 24:21

for sure.

John 24:22

so that's one the naming of each of the options. Another element of, these three option pricing tables is really kinda leveraging the cognitive bias of loss aversion and showing what's included and what's not within each option at a glance, so that your counterpart can contextualize each option and see, like you mentioned, like the standard option includes this, and this. The basic option does not.

Mark 24:46

think one of the things that most old school proposals fail to do is really clearly articulate, about what's not included. A lot of times we'll read through, a proposal with the scope and we're like, yep, yep. Okay, good, good. Got that. And then six months down the road, we find ourselves in these conversations where we're saying. I thought that was part of it. Oh, I just assumed that was part of it. I just expected that you guys would take care of that. Assumptions, expectations, all that sort of stuff. If we weren't explicit about it upfront, then it ends up being a gray area. So yeah, these tables do a really good job of the green check marks that's included. Red X, that's not included.

John 25:27

Yeah. And so adding some of those, showing what's included, showing what's not in each of those options at a glance. Colors and different graphical elements are, you know, a way to kind of design that buying experience. I think this is more around like information design and where you want to accentuate, like if there is an option that you believe is the right option, or that you believe you're able to deliver the best kind of results for your client. Maybe that's the option that you wanna highlight or present in a way that stands out from the rest. Maybe it is the middle option.

Mark 26:02

Most definitely. the power of the table and the power of tables in general is oftentimes the task that a table will bear is to convey complex information in a way that we can make sense of it, easily and quickly. So we can take it in, we can kind of look through the whole thing, top to bottom, side to side and kind of understand it very clearly. So these colors and graphic elements help facilitate that decision making that's going on in our head. So just, giving them just a page of words with a bunch of bullet points and then a number at the bottom is much harder'cause They look at the bottom and they see the big number, then they look up the page and there's a bunch of words with bullet points and everything else, and they're like, oh, I don't know what any of that says, but I know that it's just too expensive. they just, default into that place. But we want them to look at the table, be able to take in the 1, 2, 3 options without all the endless bullets and narrative and everything else. Look at it. Take it in and then be able to sort things out and make meaningful, and valuable differentiation between these three options. not to hit on this too much, folks, but we are having a conversation alongside these tables. So the tables, the nice graphical elements and the information that's being conveyed. is helping our conversation, it's aiding our conversation. So it's a sidekick, it's a partner to our conversation where they're able to take the information in but not be distracted from our conversation. Colors and graphics, absolutely.

John 27:34

Yeah, and I would even throw animations in here too. I've, just kind of like thinking through this. The way that I've presented some of these tables in the past is not showing all three options all at once, but showing option one and showing option one and two, then showing option 1, 2, 3, and kind of building upon through that narrative development. but that kind of leads into the next one. And you touched on this mark, which is presenting these in synchronous conversations. I know how much more we need to touch on this, but you wanna expand on this one?

Mark 28:05

the point to be made on this is if people try these and are unsuccessful with them, but they didn't have a conversation, I can just about guarantee that you presented something to the client without the needed. Narrative. So the client goes a little caught off guard. They were used to just getting the one number and going back to you picking up the phone and calling you and saying, sharpen your pencil. but they couldn't because now you gave them three options. Can you present a three option table without a conversation? You can, but I don't think it would be as successful.

John 28:36

This can be uncomfortable at first, going through this and presenting the three different options, but, It is something that, once you learn it and go through it a few times, it does become a little bit easier, like anything in life.

Mark 28:48

Yeah. And the one other thing about this, about these conversations, we've talked about this in the past, is that, your client, when they say they don't have time, just email it over. Do not think for a second that that's a better path. It, it is not. Sure, this might take 20 minutes of their time upfront, but it is gonna save hours on the backend because they're gonna get your proposal in the email, they're gonna look it through. They're not gonna understand what's going on. you're gonna end up in this email sword fight that, takes everybody way too much time rather than. Just having a conversation about it. So yeah, you need to get to a point where if your client says, no, email it over, you're gonna say, sorry, it's not how we do things around here. Can't do that.

John 29:29

Excellent.

Mark 29:29

this last one, anchors, you actually kind of touched on it before, is that how you present this information, these tables matters, You can present a high option first. Your option one can be a premium high option, and then you can taper down from that. And that is, generally referred to as high anchoring, right? You're gonna anchor a price high initially, and then you're gonna taper down from there, or you can arrange it differently. You can start at the low end and you can stack. On top of that so people can understand the additive nature of sort of what's included and what's excluded, They can kind of see it build. So I think both are effective and I've seen both be Used just fine.

John 30:17

Yeah. Alright, mark. So, let's close out here with the foundational piece of all of this is that we wanna build these three option tables using the perceived value of our counterparts to drive that construction.

Mark 30:36

Yes, and that comes from a deep understanding, right? the understanding powers all of this stuff. We understand what they put importance on, what they value, what is meaningful to them, what is important to them. No understanding leads to the creation of bad options or no options in general. a lack of understanding or just a poor understanding creates misalignment with their ultimate needs and what they ultimately want to achieve. so it just starts everything off on the wrong foot. So, don't just start putting three option tables together without doing the work upfront to understand what's most important, what's least important, and how that can inform your options.

John 31:14

And then start practicing putting these options together. Start testing this out like you mentioned Mark earlier in this episode. Maybe don't start with a fully mature, established offering. Maybe start with something a little bit more small. Something that's worth testing so you can start to build the muscle, build the infrastructure to start bringing this out to other service areas.

Mark 31:35

as you practice this, you'll get better and better at it. And then you can revise, what you're doing. You can do it a little bit differently. You can use these tools as you practice more and more, you can understand what your clients are recommending. as far as, oh, can we take this part of this option and move it into another one? You can start to adjust

John 31:52

see the patterns.

Mark 31:53

Yeah. don't put rigid lines between these options. If people start to push and pull things back and forth, that's a good thing, because what happens at that moment, John? Is that as soon as you see your prospective client starting to figure out how they're gonna work with you and how they're gonna buy your expertise, That is the magical moment. And if you start practicing this, you will experience that as soon as the client tilts their head a little bit to the side, starts looking, and it's like, I don't know about that one, but this could do, but can we take this and move that over there? So it's just, it's this magical moment that I have experienced and it happens, and my clients have experienced it as well, and it's yeah, this just, the conversation just changed. All of a sudden it they didn't want buy, and they were grumpy about it, and then all of a sudden they leaned in,

John 32:43

Yeah.

Mark 32:44

they started, you could see them really processing this stuff, and they're like, maybe if we did this one and they're talking to their counterparts that are on the call or in the meeting And oh, it's such a great moment. Yeah,

John 32:54

And then they come back to you and they say, okay, we wanna make these changes to it. Can you make some adjustments to the standard option, and then come back to us.

Mark 33:03

Yeah, it's a cool thing. So get out there folks. Start practicing this. Hopefully some of these ideas will resonate with you. and just let us know, contact us and let us know, and ask you if you have more questions and stuff.'cause this is not a super simple thing, but, it's really, really powerful. John, I've enjoyed this episode. I, you know, I could talk about three option pricing forever. let's call it a day today.

John 33:25

This was a fun one. We made two episodes out of it, so until next time.

Mark 33:30

Until next time, John.