John: 0:00

Everyone knows trust is like currency in professional services, but if you're the only one relying on backs, slaps handshakes, and endless virtual coffee chats, you'll run out of hours long before you run out of prospects. So how do you build trust when you can't meet everyone one-on-one? Let's have a podcast. mark. I'm excited about this conversation today. Um, this is gonna be a really fun one.

Mark: 0:43

We've talked about trust a bunch. We'll talk about it a bit more today and some of the stuff we'll rehash a little bit'cause it's so important and this seeks to answer an important question is that how how do I grow or scale this whole sort of trust building machine? A lot of people feel like they need to have these really intentional one-on-one coffees, lunches with people in order to

John: 1:11

Yeah.

Mark: 1:12

trust. But that's not necessarily the case. Right. I think there's a bunch of different ways and we're gonna, dig through, all of that.

John: 1:20

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I think one-on-one coffee chats and everything like that, that's a great way to build trust. But I think if we're ambitious about our growth goals, right, then that does, the building of trust doesn't equal the projections that you are trying to hit. So how do you scale that? How do you create an environment that accelerates trust? So that's what we're gonna talk about today. Um, but Mark, before we dive into our topic of the day, I just wanna remind folks that are listening, follow the show on your favorite podcast platform. Uh, leave a rating and review on your favorite platform that you like to use, um, and give us some feedback. We've actually got a listener survey that is, uh, in the show notes. So go down there, click on that survey, give us some feedback, and, um, let us know what you like, what you don't, what kind of topics that you want us to cover. And, um, yeah, so just wanted to drop that in there.

Mark: 2:13

All right, let's answer the, big question here, John. What are we talking about? What. what is trust

John: 2:18

that's a great question. And Mark, I think everyone can have like a little bit of a different definition about like. What builds trust for you personally. And so, um, I guess like for me, I would say that someone who shows up and has your back and does what they say, they will, they will do. Like, to me, those are kind of some core like signs of trust, but you've got like an equation that you bring out when we talk about this. Can you talk about that?

Mark: 2:48

I drag this out all the time. I do it with my clients all the time. I frequently come back to it. This was, uh, first, published in the book called The Trusted Advisor. Uh, The book was written by David Maister and Charlie Green, the trust equation, focuses on trust. Sure. But it zeros in on trustworthiness.

John: 3:11

Oh, hold on. Back up. What's the difference there?

Mark: 3:14

The reason this equation and in a lot of the conversations I have about trust, to refocus everyone on trustworthiness, it's because I think we are in control of how trustworthiness we show up in a relationship, professional, personal, whatever else we're in control of, how people perceive our level of trust, you know, the behaviors that we exhibit. Everything else that presents ourselves as being, trustworthy. We're not necessarily in control of trust itself because trust sort of sits in between. Two people, let's say. Right? like, I can't get you to trust me. That's impossible, right? But what I can do is I can show up trustworthy. Right. And I think there's certain behaviors and components to it. And, David Maister and Charlie Green went as far as to create something called the trust equation. And the trust equation, has things in the numerator and something in the denominator. And we'll have links of course, and show notes and things like that. So in order to achieve some level of trustworthiness in the numerator. We have credibility,

John: 4:14

Okay.

Mark: 4:15

have reliability, and we have intimacy. And this was presented in sort of the, the original concept was in a professional world. So credibility tends to mean that, you know, your stuff. Reliability tends to mean that, you know, you say what you're gonna do, you know, you're,

John: 4:30

You show up? Yep.

Mark: 4:32

up and you know, you have people's back and that kind of stuff. And, intimacy as a professional intimacy, it's an opportunity to feel, open and close and, uh, transparent and honest with others and have that sort of shared, openness. And then the denominator is the killer of all of that. The

John: 4:50

Okay.

Mark: 4:50

is self-orientation.

John: 4:52

Okay.

Mark: 4:53

So if we show up credible, reliable, and have a sort of openness about us and we have a low sense of self-orientation, then that yields a higher level of trustworthiness.

John: 5:07

Okay.

Mark: 5:08

Conversely, if I show up, you know, even if I'm credible, reliable and people feel close and people feel they can be open and honest with me, all I do is talk about myself. I have a high level of self-orientation that kills our trustworthiness. So there's our equation. I know we've talked about it in the past. It's worth mentioning again, specifically those, components of the equation. I really focus on the self-orientation thing and sort of that whole idea of. Yeah, we can't get people to trust us, but we sure can show up, you know, trustworthy.

John: 5:39

Well, yes, totally. And I think to that point, we can't get people to trust us. But I think the people that we are engaging with have different weights associated with each of these inputs. Like some people might have put an emphasis on credibility over intimacy or reliability and then vice versa. So just something to ponder as you're going through this that, that perhaps not. All of those are weighted the same for each individual.

Mark: 6:07

I am highly sensitized to self-orientation. Uh, and it's so interesting because I deal with a number of people across all different types of professional services firms who are, self-proclaimed introverts. Yet, A lot of times their default setting when they find themselves in a sales situation is to talk about themselves,

John: 6:30

To fill the time. Yeah. Now that we've laid out what that trust equation is, and I think let's reference this as we go through this, because the, the spirit of this episode today is, well, we know trust is important. We broke it down. We understand the components of it. So if our growth goals are, you know, to increase our pipeline, right? And increase revenue, then we need to accelerate the building of trust. How do we do that? Um, so I think the big problem is that traditionally in professional services, that's that's done on a one-to-one basis. So in theory, mark, I guess you could say you could hire more salespeople to have more conversations, but that may not, not always be the right approach. And marketing can create an environment where trust building can happen faster. And I think that's kind of the, like, where I think that there's an opportunity for firms to kind of invest a little bit more time and effort, because there's a, there's a path to increasing trust at scale.

Mark: 7:33

The focus of this episode. and you and I had conversations, um, leading up to this, and that's kind of the aha in this, is that how do we actually build trust with more people, faster, with limited resources, with the inability to have, you know, endless coffee chats and lunches and, how do we build actual good, authentic trust?

John: 7:51

On this podcast, we've talked about people like to do business with, people that they know, like, and trust. and so we're focusing on that trust, part of the equation. But just for a minute, let's zoom out and let's take a look at some of those other stepping stones to trust.

Mark: 8:06

Yeah.

John: 8:06

So, um, if we look at your trust equation. Reliability and credibility. Let's start there. Reliability is showing up. So if you think about how that applies to, you know, a market, we've talked about the, the importance of consistency in the past, consistently showing up. But what are you, what are you saying? Uh, in, in whatever vehicle, vehicle you decide to demonstrate your expertise, whether it's, you know. Posts on LinkedIn or a newsletter or a podcast or a video series, what message are you putting out there? And I think the resonance of that message is what speaks to the credibility part of your equation, right?

Mark: 8:50

no doubt. And, you mentioned it first off, as just the regularity of it. hopefully an audience that has listened to us in the past, you know, has recognized that we, published this. Podcast regularly. hopefully we have some content that's engaging. others do so as well. There's some best practices out there as far as, building a nice cadence of, producing and publishing content, whatever it is. If it's podcast content, if it's written content, whatever else it is. as consumers of all of this content, we naturally tend to gravitate to the people who are consistent and reliable.

John: 9:25

Mm-hmm.

Mark: 9:25

so. Yes. that's one huge thing that marketing can do is, you know, create content, build a cadence, and continue to sort of reinforce that with content publishing.

John: 9:37

And I think that on the surface level, a lot of people listening to this podcast understand that, right? We've been beating that drum for a while but it's these other two parts of the equation let's dig into those a little bit more intimacy and self-orientation. I think that your personality can play a big role in both of these, these components.

Mark: 10:00

Right.

John: 10:00

a few episodes ago we had Molina Palmer on to talk about, the mere exposure effect. And as part of that conversation I actually asked her about another, cognitive bias, psychological phenomenon that happens, called a Parasocial relationship. Oh, And, uh, mark, are you familiar with this term? you've mentioned that term in the past, but you know, for the sake of all of us, John, it's like a, a, a relationship with a celebrity, right? You feel like you know them, but they don't know you from Adam. And it's that feeling of, you know, someone you like, someone you even go as far as trust, someone you've never even met before.

Mark: 10:38

Yeah.

John: 10:39

And, um, so I asked Molina about this because I think that this psychological phenomenon plays into our conversation. So let's take a couple minutes and here comes Molina. There's one other, um, cognitive bias that I'd love to, to explore with you before our time's up here. Um, and that's this notion of a parasocial relationship. Have you had listeners reach out to you feeling like they know you?

Molina: 11:05

Yes, uh, definitely. And how cool, right? Like super awesome and it is a little bit, it's kind of trippy on the this side of things and I never know how much people know about me because, uh, you know, I said in 500 episodes, um, plus being interviewed in multiple places over the years, you just sort of don't really know what all you. Shared or not. Uh, but it's cool to see what sticks with people. Um, so a couple funny things that have happened. Um, so I did an episode on Scarcity pretty early on. Um, and I was talking about, um, so actually this for whatever's on video, right? So Rose Gold was like super. Cool. Um, in that like 20 18, 20 19, uh, time where it was like going through a wave of being everywhere, uh, but in limited quantities. And so I was talking about how I had all these different rose gold, rose gold items, um, and then it was posted and I had the. Picture of me for the art, for the episode that I had these, so it was like rose gold Mickey years.'cause we took the kids to Disneyland and I had my Starbucks cup and a couple things and somebody had commented and was like, oh my gosh, this is so you like, that is so Molina. Yeah. And I'm like, who are you? Like I don't even know you, but that's awesome. Right? So like that was a very fun, uh, one. Um, I also have had, so I talk about that I really love chai tea lattes, um, is something that I've talked about on the show and in my books. Far too many times apparently. Uh, but I have had it before where I've gone in to be doing work with a client, um, or attend being at a conference that I'm gonna be speaking at. And, um, the, that client or whatever, they'll say like, oh my gosh, we're so sorry we don't have a chai tea latte here for you. I know you would've. I've went like, whoa. Like, um, no, I'm not this. Total diva monster that I need you to get this from me. But like, we never talked about it, but it's just sort of a thing that people know. So, um, and things people know about, you know, where my kids have grown up through the show and things I've said about them over the years. So, um, and I love that people can feel like they know me. I think that's really great. And like you said, that no, like trust factor is so important in business. Um, and business really is a long game. And so there's also. You open up a vulnerability loop, um, which I have an episode on vulnerability loops too, but by being a little bit vulnerable and being able to share something that's maybe a little bit uncomfortable, like where I've talked about like. Building a running habit or something over the years, or things I've struggled with or whatever, uh, that opens up that aspect of trust where then people wanna be vulnerable with you. And I've had people share something like, well, you talked about this and so I wanted to tell you this thing about me. Um, and that's really amazing. Where people feel comfortable, uh, talking to me because I've been open in a very public way because who knows who will know those things about me. Um, and so I think that's important, uh, for hosts as well, that authenticity, uh, and being willing to be a little bit uncomfortable. Those episodes, those moments tend to be things that resonate with people the most and make them want to come back and keep listening and eventually. You know, buy things from you, many of them. Uh, but yeah, that's really important.

John: 14:24

Alright, She shared a couple really good examples. Um, there was that one rose gold example she shared part of her personality. She was intimate on her podcast and, you know, shared a little bit about herself. And that right there created what she referred to as a vulnerability loop. Where she shared a vulnerability and that, um, incites some level of reciprocity to share vulnerabilities. And that kind of sits in the middle there. To your point earlier of, you know, building trust,

Mark: 14:52

Right, right. And we'll underscore and highlight the fact that we believe that a podcast is a fantastic, tool, to develop these things and people that, that should be screamingly obvious to folks. you know, obviously we love, the platform. There's various, platforms achieve various things,

John: 15:09

Yeah, that's true.

Mark: 15:11

having written content or the types of content, you know, voice, content, podcasts, video, you know, having all those different channels, all those different types of content can a little harder. turn the dial a little bit more in each one of these sort of trustworthiness components. having written content in presenting that, you know, articles, blog posts, whatever else is a way that people can it, review it, be thoughtful about it, and that can increase credibility thing, right? It's the white paper. The white paper is a credibility tool, right? It's not an intimacy tool, it's not a closeness tool, it's not a vulnerability tool. It's an expertise tool. So it's a credibility tool.

John: 15:56

Yep.

Mark: 15:56

the other hand. you show up on the podcast or a video interview and you're talking about that same content, those are tools that turn the dial a different way. People see you, they hear your voice, they

John: 16:08

Mm-hmm.

Mark: 16:09

Start to build these parasocial relationships. So all these different tools and channels help, with different components of that whole trust equation.

John: 16:18

Yeah, that's a really good point, mark and I, I hadn't thought about it that way, but you're right, and, and so, you know, put Publishing a research study for example, that's a big credibility,

Mark: 16:30

Yeah.

John: 16:31

doing and sharing on social media. routinely there's your reliability. Then like you said, you're sharing your personality and your thoughts, intimacy, and demonstrating your self-orientation as the kind of like multiplying factor.

Mark Wainwright: 16:47

You're listening to breaking biz dev

John Tyreman: 16:49

the podcast that beats up, breaks down, and redefines business development for the professional services firms of tomorrow. Your hosts are John Tyerman, founder of Red Cedar Marketing, the podcast marketing company for experts and professional services firms,

Mark Wainwright: 17:03

And Mark Wainwright, principal consultant and founder of Wainwright Insight, the fractional sales manager and sales consultant to professional services firms.

John Tyreman: 17:13

If you find this podcast helpful, please help us by following the show and leaving a review on Apple podcasts

Mark Wainwright: 17:19

and now back to the show.

John: 17:23

So Mark, are there people that you feel like you've personally, that you know, that you've never met personally?

Mark: 17:31

Sure. Jonathan Stark is, is one of them, and he, he may be one for a number of different people. He, he appeals to, solopreneurs. As you know, a lot of us sort of, you know, single shingles, kind of refer to ourselves sometime. It's a funny word. But, and Rochelle Moulton had a podcast with Jonathan, but she independently is also a fantastic resource. So there's a handful of people out there. I've connected with these people professionally, certain LinkedIn in, in, in other ways. And, the interaction's always so, so, so funny. you'll listen to someone for. A long time, you'll get to know them. You'll create this parasocial relationship. You'll finally seek to with them, you know, make them a, a, a connection on the, on the platform. and maybe there's a little back and forth, and I think I've had a back and forth with both of these, both the people I just mentioned. And I've mentioned very specific things that have resonated with me and impacted me and, you know, kind of expressed that sort of relationship that I've already developed. And, you know, sort of the, the, one of the last comments in that sort of back and forth is always, well, I can't believe it's taken this long for us to, connect here on this platform. It seems like, you know, we've already even established a relationship. Already, you know, so it's, um, it's sort of like, that's like the obvious step. So tons of, tons of examples. I'm sure people have those out there as well.

John: 18:52

Yeah, that's awesome.

Mark: 18:54

Yeah. What about you?

John: 18:55

I, um, when I first got into podcasting, I was, um, listening to a bunch of sports podcasts and there was this one, one guy, Mitch, who mentioned he, uh, he loves peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. So every time I make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, I think of Mitch, and I'm like PB and j Mitch. but no, it's, funny, like on kind of like on the flip side, just recently there was, um. an owner of a law firm who reached out and she said, I've been listening to, other podcast that I do podcasting and professional services. She wanted to launch a podcast, and so she did some research and she found that show and she, listened to some episodes and there was one episode that I did about, I think it was like five Questions to Ask Yourself Before Launching a podcast, and she reached out to me with answers to each one of those five questions. Was just like, thank you so much for, for the podcast. Here are my answers. We had a great intro call and it felt like, you know, she was like one step ahead of every single question that I had for her, and right now it's like a, such a smooth process and we're gonna launch a show, um, at the end of the year. And it was really cool to see that in play and, um, to kind of go through that.

Mark: 20:10

Good. Those are, um, you know, both of those are, are, a great Example and sort of highlighting how these things come about. You know, I've got a current client I work with right now that, from the early conversations, it was clear to me that they had engaged with, you know, podcast content or other types of content early on. Whether it was just in some of those initial conversations, they had mentioned it, or, you know, whenever I was talking something through with them, they were nodding, nodding, nodding, like, oh yeah, yeah, I've heard you talk about this in the past. So, the seed had already been, been planted there. So yeah, it's, it's super, powerful, to start establishing that relationship, you know, well before the. the handshakes and the backs slaps and, lunches and coffees and everything else is that you're able to start establishing that early on at scale. So,

John: 21:00

Yep. You don't even need an intro call. Really?

Mark: 21:04

right. Yeah, exactly. It's like, I feel like I already know you. That's totally true. So, and, and just a reality check on all of this. Anybody out there can do this.

John: 21:12

Yeah.

Mark: 21:13

out there can do this. Um, we obviously have an established platform here. I like to think it's established and, you know, both of us kind of understand the importance of of this, but anybody out there can do this. And to just hit on that 0.1 more time, it's, yes, what we're talking about today, this whole building trust at scale, can apply across any type of industry. any type of professional services. And people, out there listening to this can start to put this in, play. Which leads us to this last little, chunk here, John, is that how do we actually this happen? what are the bullet points here? What do people need to be considering?

John: 21:50

Yeah, I think we did a pretty good job laying out why it's important and, how this can be a great tool, especially if you want to grow your firm.

Mark: 21:58

Yeah.

John: 21:59

so what can you do? what are the steps to take? And this is, just a high level, just kind of going through this specifically thinking about how to build trust, if that's the goal of your, of your business development function right now. If that's the goal of your marketing function right now. organize the things that if we're going back to your trust equation, lend credibility to you, right.

Mark: 22:24

Yeah.

John: 22:24

So this could be things like a list of client pain points or frequently asked questions, common scenarios that you help clients solve common characteristics of your target clients. These are just start listing them out so that you can start mapping and organizing, your thoughts so that you can take your thoughts and turn them into thought leadership.

Mark: 22:48

Right. Great point in that credibility tends to be that credibility, reliability, intimacy, sort of numerator In this trust equation, credibility tends to be the first and easiest one that an expert in a professional services firm can start to establish

John: 23:03

Yep.

Mark: 23:03

a.

John: 23:05

So the next step would be in, um, and we're talking about individuals here. Then let, let's say that this is a, a doer seller, and they, they want to. They need to balance the billable work that they have with the business development responsibilities. So what I would recommend is find one vehicle to share your authentic voice.

Mark: 23:28

Yeah.

John: 23:29

So let's break that, break that down. What I mean by that. So first of all, find a vehicle. So this could be a channel, it could be, um, a podcast, it could be a video series, it could be, you know, doing a webinars, um. Sending out email newsletters, writing LinkedIn posts, whatever that like source of creative outlet to share your, uh, your area of expertise. Pick one and go in on it.

Mark: 23:57

Yeah, focus.

John: 23:59

yeah, focus on that vehicle. And then the other part of this is your authentic voice. And I think Mark, kind of to your point earlier, like podcasts are a great way to do that. Videos are a great way to do that. Recorded audio. I think that there's still opportunity to do that through writing though, and you there, there are ways that you can, you can do that. There are literary techniques, there are copy techniques that you can use to take your voice and make it yours in writing.

Mark: 24:26

Sure. Absolutely. And you know, it's, you can be, you know. Snarky, you know,

John: 24:32

Sure. Yep.

Mark: 24:33

you can use any of these, tools or channels to, express that written content. Great. You know, it's, uh, obviously the spoken word you can communicate, personality a little bit, a little bit easier, but yeah,

John: 24:44

Yeah,

Mark: 24:44

any of these, any of these applies, so, yeah. Finding the right channel and then expressing your authentic voice. And I think there's

John: 24:50

there's a

Mark: 24:51

there's a connection between those two before we move on to the next thing. I think there's a

John: 24:54

mm-hmm.

Mark: 24:55

'cause you wanna find the right channel that enables you to express your personality.

John: 24:59

Yes.

Mark: 24:59

And if you have a personality that's outta sync with a particular channel, you know, maybe spoken content isn't, going to be the perfect thing because, you

John: 25:10

Right.

Mark: 25:11

your content is dense. it's really intense. it needs to be consumed as people read it and sort of process so maybe it needs to find a different channel. Um, so who knows

John: 25:23

Yeah. So finding a vehicle to share your authentic voice. That's the next step. And then as we move on, so the next step after that would be to build a habit of creating and publishing. And I think this is kind of like, to your point, mark of finding that vehicle that works for you. If you're in a position to where you need to create content, you need to want to do it right. Otherwise, you're going to find reasons not to do it. It's gonna deprioritize, oh, I've got so much billable work. I can't get to that. it's not a necessity. It's a nice to have. which is a trap that a lot of. Experts within professional services firms kind of default to, because either they don't know how or they feel pressure or it's just not that big of a priority.

Mark: 26:07

Right. this speaks to the reliability end of things. Is that find something you like and then start doing it consistently?

John: 26:13

yeah.'cause if you can build a habit around, sharing your thought leadership, then that's one of the, again, one of those keys to. Consistency and it's a, a major factor in the trust equation.

Mark: 26:24

Yeah.

John: 26:25

So how long does it take for someone to feel like they trust you? I suppose like it's an interesting question because there's, you know, there's different touch points. You know, how many times, like, like the rule of seven, have you heard of that? Where it takes seven times for you to see an ad to remember it.

Mark: 26:44

Sure. Yeah. Right.

John: 26:46

And then the more touch points, we talked about this on the mere exposure effect episode, messaging frequency. and so finding the right vehicle allows you to show up reliably because it, you've built a, a habit around that. but I think the, we're talking about scaling trust and scaling trustworthiness. Then I think that there needs to be efficient ways to expand beyond your core channel. So if it's a podcast, how do you take that podcast, turn it into little video clips, or take an episode and turn it into a blog post, or multiple LinkedIn posts and things like that. Or conversely, let's say that your creation habit is around sending a daily newsletter or a weekly newsletter. So how do you take that newsletter and turn that into a script that you can sit behind a screen and record and then upcycle it that way into a different content format for different channels?

Mark: 27:45

Right. And, and, and this, is related to, the content flywheel?

Speaker 2: 27:50

Yeah.

Mark: 27:51

Is that what you've called it in the past? I think it's a great, word. Podcast is a great way to start with that. But regardless of where you first generate your content, you can spin that off into various different types of content. So this one hits right at that.

John: 28:04

Yeah, so I guess like it orients the, focus and the creativity around one, one channel so that you can build that habit of publishing and reliability, but then it. It takes that and you find efficiencies to get it out on other channels, and that's really where the scale happens because you're reaching other se segments of the market who prefer to be active on other channels or learn in different ways.

Mark: 28:33

Yep. That all makes sense.

John: 28:35

Awesome. We, we talked in the past about being, becoming known for a specific thing. I think. Social evidence is another part of this, right, too, like, you know, keeping up with the, the Joneses or, you know, we, we talked about testimonials and social credibility on past episodes. That's a huge factor in trust.

Mark: 28:54

Yeah. third party endorsements. You know, testimonials are important. because your, prospective clients, people who are, wandering along this path of building trust with you. want, want some reinforcement. they wanna believe that they're not just sort of like looking or perceiving you in a particular way that nobody else is. It's like, oh, is this person really a knucklehead? And I'm just seeing it all wrong? So they look for those third party endorsements, and having that stuff readily available is helpful. And hopefully those are people who are, honest and, trustworthy of themselves. And, and, you know, who share a, testimonial, or. Whatever it is that, makes sense. It isn't, you know, overly, gushing and, you know, but it's just like, oh yeah, really helpful. Great stuff. You know,

John: 29:39

And I social proof. I suppose if we look at your trust, the trust equation here, social proof could impact credibility. Sure. I also think that social proof can impact self-orientation. So if you have third parties, you know, talking about someone or sharing a positive experience around working with an individual or a firm, then that creates a lower. What, what are your thoughts on that? I just, that just kind of thought, just kind of dawned on me,

Mark: 30:10

It, permits you to needing to be the, one that you know is pointing at yourself. These are things that other people have said about me. Just, just read them, So, absolutely it starts to drop that self-orientation. Anytime we find opportunities to avoid talking about ourselves. IE, these kind of testimonials and other things like that, let other people talk about us. So we're not the one doing the talking. That's gold me. That's 10 times or a hundred times more powerful than having me yak yak about what I do and you know, my expertise. So much more powerful to other people just come in and say, oh, I don't know, here's, here's what they said.

John: 30:54

Right. Then this last bullet point that I have, I think speaks to the intimacy part of the trust equation. And that's finding a way to engage with your audience in scalable ways. So for example, I've got a client and she, holds office hours for. Anyone, whether it's a prospect, a, a new client, a past client to show up on a synchronous zoom call and, and ask questions.

Mark: 31:23

This is starting to walk further and further down the path. I think, you know, as people start to want more people start to want to build a, a relationship with you that starts to transition from this sort of parasocial relationship to an actual connection, yeah, good point. And I think the other part of that, the engagement part, and we try to do this often and we mention it first like early on, is, uh, feedback. You know, we love to hear from. Listeners, whatever types of feedback they have is like, oh, that was good. That was not good. Here's some potential future content. I'd love to have, have you guys talk about this. That's another way to have them sort of walk that path with you

John: 32:00

Yep.

Mark: 32:00

and share in, in your journey. And that presents some intimacy, or a desire for that sort of professional closeness. I use that tool frequently. Because I want to present feedback and this two-way open communication as a priority in the work that I do. And I would say most consultants do. They want to have a very sort of open so laying a good foundation of, feedback and interaction, is a great way to continue along that path of, building trust and being trustworthy.

John: 32:30

Well, mark, I think this, this has been a fantastic episode. I think we broke down trustworthiness in a pretty, pretty deep way. We talked about all the different things that kind of go into each one of those factors of trustworthiness in the trust equation.

Mark: 32:44

I just think this episode serves to show people that there are opportunities beyond the obvious, you know, one-to-one ones to actually start to build some level of trust and trustworthiness with a, Audience. I mean, I think a lot of people can do it. Hopefully we ran through some different sort of recommendations, but I think just about anybody can start to, initiate these sort of parasocial relationships where people start to build that trust with you. Even though you're not sitting down with them over lunch, you know, this is a, a great way to do that. So, yeah. And, and then it helps with receptivity of your message and it helps with hopefully the, Hey, let's work together, you know? this has been a good episode, John. Thanks for, thanks for doing it. Until next time.

John: 33:27

Until next time.