Mark Wainwright 0:19

Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Breaking Biz Dev. This is Mark Wainwright, and I'm joined by my trusty co host, John Tyerman. John, how are you today?

John Tyreman 0:31

Mark, I am doing well. I'm excited to talk about how revenue projections can enable great professional services marketing.

Mark Wainwright 0:39

I love this topic because it really ties together two things that People don't necessarily connect all the time, sales and marketing, in a lot of organizations, these things can butt heads a little bit, but I think in this conversation today, we're really going to paint a picture of how, how sales and sales projections that, that, that happen typically towards the end of the year. And we'll talk. More about that can enable and empower and really set the stage for marketing in the following year.

John Tyreman 1:15

Yeah. And if, folks that are listening to this, they want to understand how to budget. For how to forecast for your sales pipeline, what to do maybe if midway through the year, your sales pipeline isn't where you want it to be, or maybe you're, you're right on, on par and you want to be able to take a look at that, we've got a couple episodes that we've recorded in the past about those topics. I think they would be, a great addition to this episode for you to listen to.

Mark Wainwright 1:43

Great. So in order to kick this whole thing off, I want to set the stage and talk a bit about sales projections, what they are, how you do them, what they mean, that sort of thing. Does that make sense? Let's do it. Let's dig in. Great. Great. so sales projections are a bit of a crystal ball into the future. And for a lot of firms, I think it's a little bit refreshing. Because most folks just stay focused on their immediate future. That's right in front of them. Projections give you an opportunity to pull your eyes off your desk and kind of look, to see the forest for the trees as the saying goes, right? that's what sales projections are all about. let me talk in some practical terms about sales projections, what they are, how to do them, et cetera. Does that make sense?

John Tyreman 2:32

Yeah, let's dig into it.

Mark Wainwright 2:33

So with the organizations that I work with, and I would say that in, in most organizations that have a well running sales function, whether they're full time salespeople or, you know, like the folks that we talked to a lot, John, these, doer sellers, seller doers, however we want to refer to them, they're hopefully doing sales projections. I do sales projections with the organizations that I work with typically in the fourth quarter and we look forward to the following year. Now a sales projection is a lot of times I'll sit down with individuals, I'll do this individually and then we come together as a group and talk them through collectively. But a sales projection can be anything from, a sure thing. We've got a part two or a subsequent phase or a different step or a different stage of some work we're doing right now with a current client that, that, that future work, that the timing on, on that is not super clear, but at some point next year, we think that's going to contract. Great. Let's get that on the list. At the other end of the spectrum, it could be. Kind of pie in the sky stuff, really speculative, but nonetheless realistic enough that it's worth paying attention to and focusing on. It could be, boy, I would love to do this type of work with this type of client, that's located in this area, maybe this town, this municipality, this, you know, developer, whoever they, whoever that prospective client is at some point next year, I would love for that to happen. So that's pie in the sky. It's definitely not a sure thing. It's going to take some work, that sort of thing. So there's a big spectrum there. And hopefully when I sit down with a bunch of individuals in an organization who have some visibility on, on any of these things, we come up with a nice list and hopefully. there's some meat in there. if it's a firm of any size, we come up with, some hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, you know, depending on the size of the organization of potential work. And again, you can put it in those buckets of, some of these are pretty sure things, some of them are maybes and others are like, wow, that's. Pretty speculative. The great thing about all of this, I think there's two great things. First of all, it lets us focus and stay focused on the things that are on our list of projections. So throughout the course of the year, we come back and we look at what we put down on that projections list and we say, Hey, what's, what work are we doing currently to make sure that happens? And they set the stage for great things. Marketing, which is our sort of topic du jour today, John, I, I spent maybe seven years, at, a branding agency called hinge marketing, where. I led up the research practice and I looked at what makes high growth professional services firms grow faster. One common theme every single year was the focus on niche specialization, whether that's in a specific industry, whether that's in a specific service offering. being known for the firm that does X for Y is a great, way to specialize and to grow faster. Because your clients know exactly what you do and for whom. the notion of, I'd love to work with this client on this kind of project. I think those are great conversations to have Because, you can dig into those different kinds of projects and you can find out, okay, is this type of work profitable for the firm? Is this type of work, does this ignite, enthusiasm within our team, is this the kind of work that we want to win? So those are the different kinds of things that you can dig into. in those conversations. And this is kind of a long way of saying that it impacts marketing, because, if you are able to win the kind of work that you want to win you're able to create more repeatable models for delivering on that work, which can impact your. your margins and your profitability and the kinds of people that you bring into your organization. so those revenue projections, if they're founded on a specific client persona, specific kind of work that can make for more, accurate revenue projections as well. Great. Great. I totally agree. And what's important to recognize, I think is marketing plays the long game, right? When you are planning and undertaking and executing marketing campaigns, whatever marketing efforts, whatever they may be, they are not things that are going to typically create results overnight, right? Your sales team, your sales function, people. Doer sellers, folks that are, that have opportunities in front of them, their opportunities are in the pipeline, they are having active conversations. That is the short game, right? And maybe if we're a little generous, it's the sort of mid, midterm game, right? But it's not the long, hopefully it's not the long game. Some opportunities turn into the long game, unfortunately, but sales is playing the short game. so marketing plays the long game and the sooner we can get, some targets, some opportunities and a list of areas to focus on a things to chase after. into marketing hands, the better off we're all going to be. So let's talk a little bit about how actually these revenue projections can play out into, to really great marketing.

John Tyreman 8:04

Yeah. in our last episode of breaking biz, that we talked about revenue pacing at the mid year mark and folks that are listening to this, please go check out that episode. in that episode, Mark, you laid out a scenario where, At the middle of the year, your revenue projections, weren't at that 50 percent mark. They were a little bit under that 50 percent mark. And, talking through the numbers, you recommended focusing on your existing opportunities in your pipeline. Right.

Mark Wainwright 8:31

Correct.

John Tyreman 8:32

And focusing on those. Well, marketing can play a role in that. I don't, it's, it doesn't have to just be long term. Marketing can absolutely have an impact on the short term. Marketing can enable your sales team to help nurture those opportunities to close. Maybe it's creating a specific piece of content designed for a specific opportunity in your pipeline. So that's just one example of how, you're looking at your revenue projections. Maybe you realize that, Oh, we do need to focus on our pipeline. We do need to focus on the opportunities there. How can marketing help support that? Because we're behind the eight ball. Great. so that, that's one way marketing can help, nurture those opportunities. On the other hand, maybe you, you are right where you want to be in your revenue projections, you're right on pace for exactly what you wanted to project in a year, or maybe you're doing even better than that. Maybe you're ahead of schedule. And so marketing should be focused on generating new opportunities to fill your pipeline so that, that pipeline cliff that we talked about in past episodes. Maybe that doesn't happen this year. Maybe you can push that cliff out. into the next year. so that you can, build out that pipeline and backlog of projects.

Mark Wainwright 9:46

it's a, a fair point. I can absolutely see how, how internal marketing resources can help with that short term need that you have. Look, I just need to, I just needed this little slice of information. I'm looking for this bit to put in front of my. Prospective client that's in the pipeline right now. What can I share with that person that will help this deal advance, help get their mind in the right, right place. Keep things moving. I can totally see how that would happen. And then yes, we are generating these new opportunities, creating awareness in the marketplace, engaging with folks, and hopefully they have some opportunities for us that are a great fit. Good. I think that's great.

John Tyreman 10:30

let's focus on that because I think it's, that should be really the spirit of this podcast conversation today is to talk about how those revenue projections can enable marketing to generate those new opportunities. So I don't want to dwell on how marketing can impact your existing pipeline. Let's talk about how marketing can help fill the pipeline. Good. when you're looking at your average time in the pipeline, right? So you call it deal length. What would you call it? Opportunity age can be opportunity age. Sure.

Mark Wainwright 11:00

any one of those things. Sure.

John Tyreman 11:01

Let's talk about that. So, opportunity age from initial touchpoint. So let's say a lead. comes in, let's say they fill out a contact form on your website, or maybe they're a prospect that you've been having conversations with in an early stages. And they've reached out and said, Hey, you know what? I think we've got a need for your services.

Mark Wainwright 11:18

Yeah.

John Tyreman 11:18

that opportunity age on average, let's say 120, 120 days. Sure. Something like that. Sure. Why not? Yeah. They may not be ready to buy right then and there, right? Maybe they're dissatisfied with their status quo, with their current situation, and they're ready to entertain conversations with you, maybe among other potential vendors that they're talking to. but they're not. actively buying. We talked about this in the past of, there's active buyers in the marketplace, there's passive buyers in the marketplace. And so, the time it takes for buyers who are, maybe they're satisfied with their status quo to move into questioning whether or not the vendors that they're working with are who they want to be working with, or maybe they're, with. the time it takes for them to talk to all those different vendors and then land on, a firm that they want to work with. so marketing can play a different role in each one of those scenarios, taking, prospects or leads who. Maybe they're passively buying, or maybe they're satisfied with their status quo. Staying top of mind with those types of potential buyers. And that's a role of marketing to stay top of mind. And you can do that in a couple different ways. obviously, social media is a great way to stay top of mind by consistently publishing content. Podcasts are a great way to stay top of mind. Agreed. Newsletters are another great way to stay top of mind. So these, these types of marketing activities that, offer consistent touch points with your prospects. So that you can just remain top of mind so that they see your name. They see your brand name. They see your thought leadership. They see your opinions and your perspective in the marketplace. when you're talking about passive buyers or the folks that are in the marketplace that are, maybe they're dissatisfied with their status quo. And they're open to talking to different firms about solutions for their challenges. marketing can play a different kind of role. And that it then boils down to the messages and the content that you're putting out there. you're creating a picture in your prospect's mind of the gap between where they are today and where they could be tomorrow through your services.

Mark Wainwright 13:45

this makes me think that, that, that statement that people don't know what they don't know.

John Tyreman 13:49

Yeah.

Mark Wainwright 13:49

So the passive buyer or the folks that are happy with the status quo, they don't know what they don't know. So your, your marketing content is presented, your marketing team, your marketing engine is presented with an opportunity to introduce, not in a negative way, but introduce some potential dissatisfaction, at least, highlight something that organizations need to be looking at and focused on. And lo and behold, something like that might spur someone to think, you know what? This isn't actually working the way we want it to work and, we might need some help with this thing. So yeah, it makes sense.

John Tyreman 14:29

and let's say that your marketing is effective, right? Let's say that your marketing is contributing to potential new deals and you're adding to the pipeline, you're extending that pipeline cliff, right? I think that then enables you to look at your resource allocation a little bit more clearly. So marketing's contributing to the pipeline. Marketing is, building out this backlog. You're able to more confidently say that in the first half of next year, we will close on X amount of dollars and therefore we will need to hire. Why amount of employees in order to fulfill on that work? so I think, yeah, so that's another way that great revenue projections can enable marketing, which also enables your recruiting function. So it all stems, you know, sales is like air to businesses, right?

Mark Wainwright 15:24

Yeah. on that resource allocation thing, I, uh, this might be something that people don't immediately connect, internal resources connected to marketing and selling. There might, that might not sync up in people's minds, but you know, if there is an opportunity in the marketplace that has been defined by your marketing team and embraced by the sales team and you begin to Market and sell and start to generate some interest and awareness around this particular service. maybe this is something that your organization can, offering a new service around or move into a new geography or whatever it is. You're going to need to resource that potential work at some point. You're going to need to have bodies internally that can, that have that expertise that can do this. So the great thing about aligning all of the aligning marketing, aligning, selling, and aligning your internal sort of service delivery and resources is. If you're seeing some traction and some success in your marketing and selling with these new service or whatever it is, then your team internally has the opportunity to get ahead of the game. you have, you can add additional resources, you can change the sort of composition of your internal resources in time to address that future need, rather than selling a bunch of stuff and scrambling around, in the 11th hour to try to, Get the right expertise, get the right people in the right seats, whether it's internal training that has to happen or whether it's new people you need to bring in, or whether it's a complete, just rethinking of your kind of service delivery team. If you're doing successful marketing and selling ahead of time, it gives you. It gives you a head start, right? you can say, Oh, it's going to take us six months to get new staff in place and to get them ready to do this work. Good. We've got that time because everything we're doing from a marketing and selling perspective is indicating that we will need that.

John Tyreman 17:30

Well, and then if you're, if you take that proactive approach, you can take your time vetting candidates and finding the perfect fit and finding the right fit. Whereas if you're taking that reactionary approach, maybe you hire the wrong person for more than you budgeted for, right? Because you have a need because you've got a client whose project you need to start next week or, two weeks from now.

Mark Wainwright 17:53

there's an opportunity to constantly be looking back and forth at the projections, the what ifs, the what's happening in your sales pipeline, what's happening in marketing. Cause those three things are happening in different timeframes and timelines. And if you, if all of it makes sense, great. Yeah. But if the, if there's one of those pieces that's out of alignment or it doesn't make sense, like we've got all these projections and we have no marketing and no sales sort of, direction with that. There's no connection there, like we're going to go market and sell this one thing. And then your projections are saying something else you're out of whack. So it's super important to make sure that those things are all connected. We are projecting this type of future work. Fantastic. We've got marketing folks and marketing content, marketing tools. That align with that great that will flow into the selling end of things where when we close this work, we'll be able to deliver it, so there's all these nice connections there. So that's important.

John Tyreman 18:55

Yeah. And I'm sure other firms have been there before where they've sold a bunch of work and they didn't have the staff to deliver on it. And then that, that creates another, roadblock to growth that these firms have to navigate to.

Mark Wainwright 19:08

John, I'm a sales guy. I rarely care about that. to be perfectly honest, and people are shaking their heads at it, I'm the kind of, Person. And, there are people who are complete, just, we're just focused on the top line, right? just let's get the contract signed and then we'll figure out, what's next. Generally speaking, most firms are good enough to figure it out. But in the case that they're not, that's problematic. But I also don't want to paint the picture that I'm completely, kind of. separated from reality here, right? The things that are happening in the front end, the marketing, the projections, the sales, all that definitely needs to be in alignment with what you can actually deliver, or you did your projections wrong. You're marketing for the wrong thing. your pipeline is filled with a bunch of, opportunities that you're not going to be able to deliver on what's going on here. So that's always a consideration.

John Tyreman 19:57

another way that good revenue projections can enable great marketing is through this notion of data driven decision making, and applying those pipeline analytics to your, what the outcome of your marketing. Activities should be. And what I mean by that is really working backwards from your revenue targets and saying, okay, next year we need to do 1. 5 million in sales, let's just say. And so how many. Proposals do we need to send out based on our average proposal value? how many opportunities do we need to get to that number of proposals based on the pipeline analytics? How many leads do we need to get to that number of opportunities? and how many prospects do we need to go after to get to that number of leads? And so you work your way back from the revenue target. And then you reverse engineer that to understand what marketing needs to contribute to the pipeline.

Mark Wainwright 21:01

Exactly,

John Tyreman 21:02

exactly.

Mark Wainwright 21:03

and that can be done. I know there's a lot of folks out there who think that's, you can't actually get those numbers figured out, but you can, you can figure those numbers out. You can reverse engineer, however you want to refer to it and work backwards from your revenue targets and figure out, the. The proposals, the opportunities, the leads that all you can figure out all of that. And then you can even get way more specific in that you start, you can start splitting that whole thing up to saying, okay, so how many leads of this particular type in this specific geographic region do we need, if three quarters of our staff have a particular expertise and we need to keep them working hard, um, how many, Opportunities, proposals, leads, you know, reverse engineering that. How, how many do we have to have in order to keep those folks busy? Or if they're in an area of your firm, if they're an expertise or a service area that, isn't necessarily growing, in the future, and your marketing team should be the ones who are kind of understanding this is like, nah, the demand for that is decreasing, but I'll tell you what, just, just a couple of degrees separated from that expertise is this other area that is growing wildly. If we reorient those folks or bring in some new folks or whatever else it is, what, again, how many proposals, how many opportunities, how many leads, what prospecting are we doing? What marketing messaging, messaging are we doing to build up this new area? So all of that is entirely. Possible. And it just takes a little bit of work.

John Tyreman 22:38

Yeah. I think to bring that full circle, that's the concept of focus and concept of, understanding your specialization, your niche expertise. I like to say there are riches in the niches. And so if you're able to effectively segment your audience, segment your pipeline based on the different kinds of work, the different industries, the different office locations, all of this helps you focus your marketing efforts on, generating the types of opportunities that will amount to the revenue projections that you want.

Mark Wainwright 23:13

Yeah, exactly. and there's a visual that I have in my head every time I kind of think this through and people may, may have a similar visual. I picture, you know, it's a commonly used term in sales and marketing. I picture a funnel, uh, and it's, you know, it's triangular in shape and it's the large end of the top and the small end at the bottom. and what we talked through as far as. Proposals and opportunities and leads and prospects is us working up in that, in that, in that funnel going towards the larger and larger, right? You need more leads. That lead to fewer opportunities that lead to fewer closed deals. That's just the nature of things. So we've got that visual, but then all of a sudden I see these vertical separations that, um, that are these different focus areas. and the one thing to, to highlight about those vertical separations is the areas that you're looking to grow. Maybe they're new areas. Maybe they're a little more speculative, a little more perspective. You likely need to over invest in those in your, the marketing, the prospecting that's happened higher up in that funnel, you need to over invest in that. And the areas that, maybe aren't high growth areas, maybe they're long time areas of expertise where you have. Yeah. People just coming back to you again and again for you to do that work, you should be under investing in those particular areas, and if it's something you want, if it's a service area you want to close altogether, you shouldn't be doing any type of marketing in that. And frankly, if your pipeline is filled with 50 percent of those opportunities and something went wrong, right?

John Tyreman 24:55

Something went wrong. Maybe a year ago you were doing the wrong kind of marketing, right?

Mark Wainwright 24:59

You were doing the wrong thing.

John Tyreman 25:00

Yeah. And, yeah, to your point about new opportunities, the reason why. You want to overinvest in maybe it's a new service line is because maybe you don't have the historical data to be able to understand what those conversion rates are in that vertical segment of your pipeline. So you'll need to overinvest in that in order to be able to gather enough data to understand what those conversion points are and what those, sorry, what those conversion rates are.

Mark Wainwright 25:28

I, John, I, this is a fascinating topic for me. I love how, I love the opportunity that organizations can pull together sales projections, take a look at their sales pipeline, and then sort of, like we said, sort of back out or reverse engineer all these fantastic marketing opportunities, campaigns, initiatives, whatever, and how those can all lead to, you know, a more Pipeline with higher close rates and opportunities that you're really well equipped to deliver, all of that. So I think this is a fantastic topic.

John Tyreman 25:59

It's a lot for business development professionals to handle, right? Yeah. There's so much there's sales, there's marketing, there's the soft skills. There's the analytical skills. That's it's a lot to handle.

Mark Wainwright 26:10

we've talked about this in the past, like typically all that stuff that we just talked about gets dumped on somebody's lap. Yeah. This is why we exist, John. This is to say, look, business development, marketing, selling all this. it's super complex. It typically gets dumped on one person to handle all of this. And a lot of times it's way too much. So all these things need to be broken apart and looked at, independently and see how they all stitch together in order to be really successful.

John Tyreman 26:39

Well, hopefully folks that are listening to this got a good kind of understanding of how, accurate and clear revenue projections can make an impact on how you go to market. how your marketing, can play a role in your pipeline. So, um, Mark, thank you so much for the great conversation today.

Mark Wainwright 26:58

Perfect. John, I had a great time until next time.

John Tyreman 27:00

Until next time.